I want to buy at Olive8, but I also want some concessions from the developer!
So you would like to close on your unit at Olive8, but feel like the developer needs to reduce the price or offer some concessions first. Discuss your thoughts in the comments section.
I don't feel price concessions would work. They'd have to do an across the board cut (everyone gets a 5% drop) or none at all. Anything less and it'd be unfair to those that locked in at an early price. And will a 5% price drop really make that much of a difference in finding financing? Probably not.
A large majority will be dropping out due to their inability to finance the unit. I'd rather see help with securing financing. Most people love the building and do want to close however are very very timid about doing so. Many just simply can't (put me in that category). For a good majority of us our only option is Countrywide. I've spoken to several Wells Fargo agents and the only way WF can finance is with a 25% down payment. Ouch.
I'd think help with a down payment would be better in lieu of a price drop. We already have our 5% locked up in earnest money and Countrywide is requiring at a minimum 10%. Help us out somehow with that remaining 5% and then we can start talking. So many have been devastated by the market the last year that coming up with that added 5% is a deal breaker.
Just my two cents. I do doubt we'll see any concessions from the developer outside a gift basket waiting on the kitchen counter after closing. :(
I too am doubtful that the developer will offer any concessions. However, I think it would be worth a try. And in this market, the developer should be willing to do a lot to keep their buyers buying.
I think a price drop is possible, even required, at this point. Doing some checking, other condos in cities like San Francisco and LA have seen price drops of 15-20% offered across the board (including all pre-sales) by the developer. I think once Olive 8 sees that no one is closing on the first few floors, they will be forced to do a 15%+ price drop to salvage the rest of their pre-sales. Ideally, they would offer this before the first few floors start walk throughs. I think this is likely the only way they will be able to retain over 50% of the current pre-sales.
I don't think a price drop is possible, but would be interested in hearing a response from Hedreen. If we had 20 buyers that were ready to walk unless there was a price reduction, I'd be he'd be willing to listen.
The 60 story Millennium Tower in San Francisco is as nice or nicer than Olive 8 - it has a Michael Mina restaurant rather than a Hyatt bar, and the penthouses are 3x the cost of Olive 8. They cut condo prices 15% in January for all buyers.
I agree. I think a 15-20% reduction would be fair. I'd be much more likely to close with this type of price reduction. However, if people start closing, then there's no way they'd reduce prices. Its either all the buyers get reductions, or none. Since it looks like they're starting closings already, price reductions won't happen.
15-20% sounds about right. I think a lot of the people planning to walk could be convinced otherwise with a drop of that magnitude. I have no problem closing if I know in advance I am losing 10-15% of value the day I move in - it is a long-term investment for me, and I am pretty sure in 5-8 years or so the markets will recover at least 10% from where we are now. But, that would mean a 15% or even 20% drop from the peak 2007 prices that we all paid. I agree they should follow suit with the Millennium Tower in SF ASAP.
FYI....Gallery Condos in Belltown just dropped their prices from $20,000 to $100,000 on 18 units! These are brand new units that began closing in the fall of 2008! Just imagine if you closed on a unit! This just confirms that I won't plan on closing on my reservation at Olive 8!!
Looks like other than Gallery, three other Williams Marketing projects are dropping prices!
-Brix -Ruby -Leona
(info from urbnlivn.com)
What's the possibility that Williams will suggest that Olive8 drop their prices after they finish working through all of the purchase and sale agreements?? Extremely high in my opinion.
Sure, but not for those with purchase agreements unless the appraisals come way low. Besides, keeping non-closing buyers' earnest money will soften the hit for the seller.
Like the previous post, I believe the developer will cut prices after they've finished working through the purchase agreements. My plan is to forfeit my earnest deposit and then rent a unit in the building. In 6-12 months, when the prices drop, then I'll reconsider purchasing and probably more than recoup my lost earnest deposit of $30,000. The only way I would reconsider is if the developer offered a price reduction up-front.
FYI...sales center will be open on March 26th for Buyer Only Event. They'll host it at the entertainment room on the 18th floor and they'll have a unit on the 19th floor.
Does anyone want to meet up again? Its getting closer to my closing and I'd like to hear from anyone that has started the process.
Has anyone brought their concerns to Hedreen or Thyer??
thanks to whomever started the blog, I learned of it over at skyscrapercity. I am planning to forfeit my deposit and buy when they drop prices as well, and Im 99% sure they will. All you have to do is look at other projects, how would olive8 somehow defy every other project and be able to maintain their pricing. I know of not a single project that has maintained original pricing outside of a p&s. It is starting to make the whole idea of getting in early look like more of a shackle than a benefit. If the developer/ williams was even slightly transparent about these horrible conditions, I might reconsider, but they have said nothing. I question how they conduct business, and how they will deal with unsold inventory. obviously it is in their best interest to close units instead of keeping the 5%, so what the heck are they thinking? ( sorry im a little heated). maybe they think if they give us more wine and cheese at another event well throw caution to the wind and just forget that realestate, the economy, local businesses, jobs, and ironically hotels are tanking. my partner and I love the building , and would love to live there, but with the way things are playing out and the total lack of response from the developer, it is making us feel like walking from our deposit might be the least risky move.
I wrote the above post, but I am asking myself where are all the buyers? either: 1) they are going to close and dont care about market etc. 2) they dont know about the blog... yet 3) they are NOT going to close, they just dont see the need to go blog about it like nerds like me.
I for one am going to advocate this blog at the next buyers event ( actually I dont know how well that will go over), mainly because I want to know what others are planning to do, as every persons decision effects every other persons decision. It would be very beneficial for all buyers to know where all buyers stand. If someone doesnt close,that leaves a vacant unit for the developer to deal with via price drop, rental, etc. that effects EVERYONE!
How about NO CLOSING COSTS? That might entice some people to hang on to their units. The 15-20% price drop would be great too. Those that close now are at an extreme disadvantage in the marketplace, as many other new projects are priced much lower and it will take 10 years to get that appreciation back with the way the economy is right now. We are 99% sure we are walking at this point. It seems the LEAST risky move. I wish I could get my earnest money back, or even half of it back!
Has anyone used an attorney to fight the developer on getting Earnest Money back? Should we all band together with an attorney and see what we can do?
the deveoper is in an incredibly difficult situation. I also beleive that Hedreen is a very good/reputable developer. I am sure they have meetings,proposals, run scenerios, etc. I am sure they have already planned for every possible outcome. They already know what they will do with unsold units, they already know what they will do if most people walk. The problem is they will not be forthright about their plans if the plans themselves would be seen as a negative to buyers. So when I think about it, any statement they make will be "political" designed to comfort or give confidence to buyers. Essentially what Im saying is this: anything other than concessions, or something IN WRITING about what they plan to do with unsold inventory is probably worthless. Developers do care about their reputation, but they care about profit and reputation... in that order.
I am trying to find an instance anywhere in the country where pre-sale buyers ( or any buyers for that matter)banded together and were able to influence a developer. I know it sounds great, but I dont think its been done. Does anyone know if this has been done with any success?
I know of two attorneys that would be willing to meet with Olive8 buyers. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if either will do a contingency only type settlement. I'm not interested in putting more money into this. I know that if you hire an attorney, the Williams Marketing/Olive8 team WILL stop talking to you. So timing is important here.....
I sincerely hope they make some kind of announcement/acknowledgment at the buyers event. I also think it would be good to get more buyers active on the blogs just to see what their plans are.
instead of dropping prices, why not massive buy downs in rates?
this would be easier than a price drop, would encourage everyone to hold onto their unit since they have such a low rate and would make reselling the existing inventory easier
BTW - does anyone have any updates on the Fannie issue? Last I heard, this project was not Fannie approved? Please correct me if I'm wrong and that developer was going to apply for something like a PARs???
I haven't heard if they were able to get Fannie approved. I'm sure they'll announce that next week.
Also, I just saw that Enso in SLU is offering the following:
-price reduction on 8 units to their "pre-opening" prices -no HO dues until Dec 2010!!! Thats at least a $5000 savings! -$8500 towards closing costs -$500 donation to a SLU non-profit in your name
Developer of Olive8.....PAY ATTENTION! Just because you have buyers on contract, doesn't mean they'll stay on contract!
Olive8 buyers.....we need to hold out and threaten to walk unless we have some sort of concessions! If you really think the developers of Olive 8 won't offer these concessions in 6 months for their unsold inventory, you're crazy!
anyone on who reads this blog should really tell others about it at the next buyers event. This is not about trying to put one over on the developer, this is about protecting your interests, money and investment ( the largest you will likely ever make ) believe me, the developer is going to do everything they can to protect their interest. TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THE BLOG!
FYI - just received an email from a representative of Williams Marketing advertising a $125K price drop on one of the units at the Leona project. Not sure how many have sold there. It appears to be a much smaller project than Olive 8.
So for Olive 8, let's assume 80% pre-sold, so that would be roughly 158 and of that, let's assume a 50% buyers execute on their contracts - that's 79 homes sold out of 198. That means the developer is left with 119 units. With that many units in inventory, can you imagine what the price drop would be to move them???
to those that are having trouble posting here do this: -write your post -choose anonymous -type in the words it tells you to type. you will then recieve some message about the post not working, just repeat the process and it will go through... basically you have to do it twice. ( I dont know why this is the case, but it has happened everytime I post)
unless I get something in writing about what the developer is going to do with unsold units, I am going to forfeit my 5%... that is a lot of money for me, but enso condos just 2 blocks away from olive8 cut some prices 25% on select units... vulcan has VERY deep pockets and even they are cutting prices.
I am not an attorney but I work with them on a daily basis. I am an expert hired by attorney to testify inside and outside the court system. Litigation is the wrong way to go because this would take a very long process and it is very expensive. Litigation may take years because of our court system. Your best bet is to go for arbitration. This is the quickest, cheapest and most practical way to recover your money in full of partial. Not sure if you guys know what artbitration is, but for the purposes of discussion, this is decided by an arbitrator mutually selected by both the defense and plaintif counsel. This process is conducted outside the court system and the results are almost immediate. Here are few suggestions that I would like to offer:
1. Gather as many people as possible and collectively decide on a legal counsel. The more the better because your attorney fees would be almost insignificant.
2. Start a dialouge with an attorney and discuss important terms and these terms should be made contingent on the outcome of arbitration. Be clear (well documented terms) on attorneys fees and % of money that would go to the firm once settled. You can also arrange for the Olive 8 to pay your attorney's fees if the arbitration results rule in your favor. You also would like to be clear with the attorney that if the verdict is against the group that you are not willing to put out more money out of your pocket. All these could be discussed with your lawyer.
I know you guys don't know me but trust me this would be your best approach.Securing the services of an attorney would be imperative and do it quickly because you close of escrow if fast-approaching.
Here is the link to the list of current projects that are fannie mae approved and their expiratioin dates in the state of Washington... not many here and no Olive 8.
To the Enso posts above: Enso is cutting prices on "select" units at because they are trying to reach the 70% presale level so they can apply for the fanniemae approval. The 8 units that have been selected for the special pricing have been reduced between 20% - 26% of their original pricing from early 2007. It will be interesting to see how that plays out with current buyers, but, who would want to close on a unit when their neighbor just purchased for 25% less. If you still really want to be in the project... then walk from 5% earnest money, wait 1 month and purchase at the new "current market price" which will definitely be less as we are in a declining market and there will be a tremendous amount of inventory hitting the market this year and early 2010 making for furious competition.
I agree with arbitration vs. litigation approach. If we go to litigation and file a suit in District court we are looking at late 2010 for the court date and most likely it will take 2 - 5 years for a ruling. Then... you still have to collect. If we want to seek arbitration then time is of the essence and we need to band together now.
Hey... about the buyer event and getting the word out about the blog: Let's make postcard or business size cards or on card stock paper with a message and the blog address. Hand them out to everyone at the event.
If you are all interested, I'd be willing to facilitate another buyer's only event. I would invite all of the buyer's that are NOT planning on closing. I would invite two different attorneys to attend (at differing times) to present how they could help us. Or, we could meet separately before setting a date to meet with the attorneys. At this time, I know that Craig Blackmon and Steve Crane are attorneys that could potentially help us. Thoughts??
With regards to having to post twice....has anyone else had this problem? I have never needed to post twice, and I have posted both anonymously and under my name.
I am the one who whoe wrote the instructions because of someone on seattlecondosandlofts said they couldnt post everytime I post I have to click "post comment" twice, and type in the security word twice.
I figured I would share it in case it happened to anyone else
I am all for banding together and looking into arbitration. There is definite strength in numbers. If we get enough people together and we don't win, at least we tried, and the cost will be much less than litigation.
I am very surprised that the developer has made no comment on what they would do with unsold inventory, I am sure they dont want to open a can of worms, but there cannot be a single buyer who hasnt thought of this. the developer is burying their head in the sand and hoping most people close... good luck with that.
Are you sure that sq/ft is less than what is on sales and purchase agreement? If that is verifiable you could back out of your contract if you want w/ earnest money. BTW, how did you figure that out?
Just saw the first Olive8 unit for resale on Redfin. They must have just closed on the unit this week. 2 br 2ba for almost $900/sf! Lets see how long this unit stays on the market before the price starts to drop.
if there are "significant material changes" that is grounds for getting your money back. the tough part is proving what a significant material change is. a few investors at 1521 condos tried unsuccessfuly to get out of the contract that way. They cited ceiling height discrepencies. It was not enough of a "significant material change". I do know that square footage would work, but not 10 sqft, I think it could be shown that that is not significant.
I did a search on King County Records and there has been no recent activity. I searched under "Olive 8 LLC" and the last activity that I saw was Hedren doing a quit claim to Olive 8 LLC releasing himself from being personally liable, Back in February. I doubt that there has been any closings yet.
Olive8 closings will not show up on the KC Records for at least a few weeks. I believe there have been closings already, and thus the listing on Redfin. We'll find out tonight!
can't say i was too impressed either. i was on the fence whether i was going to close or not, but this pushes me more to the "probably wont" side. not entirely on that site quite yet, still up in the air, so we'll see if the developer has anything up his sleeve to push us back in the other direction
I was pretty late to the event so didnt have much time to look at all of the units. Was a bit underwhelmed with what I saw, but certain things were nice. The kitchens were all quite nice most definitely. Some other elements were disappointing however like the standard doors (not the Ramplus, those rock) and some of the dimensions seemed smaller than expected. I will have to go back with a tape measure and compare to the floorplan, but I think the unit was a bit smaller than stated.
I know that the purchase agreement stated that there may be minor differences between the floorplan and final product. I just wonder what is considered minor vs. when we would be able to receive our deposits back. I dont know about you, but a room that is 2 feet (my guess) narrower than the floorplan seems to be quite F'ing major, and if that is the case would require some major concessions from the developer in return.
I was not impressed. I saw uneven floors and bedroom sliding doors that did not close flush with the wall. My unit seemed significantly smaller than my floorplan suggested. It honestly felt like the developer rushed and cut corners in doing so. I heard the developer's rep tell a buyer that they wouldn't fix an uneven floor. He told her that the purchase agreement allowed the developer this leeway. So if you expect to get out of your contract during the walk-through, good luck!
The turn-out was not was not that great in my own opinion. The units available for viweing were not that impressive. The lower floors absolutely have a lot of privacy issues due to the proximity of the Qwest building and Wells Fargo offices. You almost need to keep your blinds down permanently. You don't get to appreciate it not until you are in these units. I perhaps was expecting a lot more considering this is high-end Hyatt product. I think the developer really needs to re-evaluate their pricing now that the finished product is here for people to feel and touch.
I thought that overall the product looked pretty good. Some floor level issues are to be expected in high-rise concrete construction. I thought they probably could have done a better job in preparation for the event in getting some of the punchlist work (indicated as I was told by the blue tape everywhere) completed, but at least they intend to make the fixes and generally they looked pretty minor. The lounge/deck areas are going to be great. Can't wait to see the final furnishings (again, I was told they are still coming!). Compared to the competition, ie: Four Seasons and 1521, I still think we are getting a great value.
Great value? How do you figure that? Did you not know price of condos in Seattle are falling. Also, since sq/ft less than stated on the blue print, you definitely are not getting value of any kind.
"R.C. Hedreen will own the Olive 8 building with its partner, the Hyatt Corporation, as a long-term investment. Hedreen is a local, long-time developer with roots in the Seattle area that go back nearly 50 years. Their excellent reputation is based on the fact that they retain ownership of their buildings, so quality and high performance are their bottom line. Some developers build with the intent of selling as soon as the building is out of the ground, so they may be less inclined to invest in quality for the long term. The economic health of the community where Hedreen employees live and work is vital to them."
Does anyone know how the 50/50 ownership split between hotel and condos would make a functioning management structure for ensuring the maintenance of the building? Having a slight majority is more practical. this post references the KC property records: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=33330276&postcount=762
LOL, regarding the PDF of 'differentiators'. Translation:
Come on you bunch of simpletons! Cant you realize that Olive 8 is so different and unique that it will buck the trends being faced by every single home and condo project in Seattle, nay America!
Hello, I'm interested in buying in Olive 8, specifically the 00 floor plan. If anyone is trying to get out of their contract before closing, please let me know.
With all due respect to you seattlecondobuyer. There is a lot of 00 floor plan still on the market. Just curious would you rather deal with a re-sale than going directly to Olive 8?
1) I'm not sure if the pre-sale prices are lower than the current listing prices. I'd like to know. 2) Right now all of the 00 floor plans are owned by the same entity, and they have reasons to hold firm on the prices to avoid the price guarantee problems. 3) Parking. Olive 8 no longer has spare spots to sell. A current contract holder might.
I'm certainly not against going through Olive 8, but I'm against overpaying.
The price guarantee released by Olive 8 few months ago is not going to stick according to a couple of lawyers I spoke to. Apprently it is time sensitive not sure what timeline they were talking about but both attorneys said the price gurantee is tricky so I guess we need to read that document again and see if there are gaps that would allow the developer to adjust their prices based on the current economic condition specifically in Seattle. Olive 8 needs to look around their competitors. Many of them have adjusted their prices as a response to the ever-changing market. No one is going to be spared regardless of their reputation and this not directed only to Olive 8 this is a reality that needs to be addressed by all developers.
Yes, I saw Erica there the other night at the buyer's event and she was quite excited about how her unit turned out. I believe it was the 09 floor plan that faces West, just north of the Qwest building. According to Williams Marketing, there were only 6 investors who bought, but I have a feeling there were actually many more.
Minimum lease term is 6 months according to the POS.
Boy did you guys get hosed on this building. It should be fun paying 2007 prices (which were about 50% too high) to live next to rental units (which those unsold will be in 6 months). Brutal...
I really wanted to love my unit, but the reality is I was not impressed at all last week. I planned on closing and living in it, but now I plan to walk from the deposit.
It's too bad because I love the building and the concept, but they have not lived up to the standard of excellence they originally set. And what's worse is they don't seem to really care.
I did not attend the Buyers event, but from the responses generated on here it sounds quite underwhelming. I am General Contractor and if floors are uneven in our homes, we "float" them out and make them even, ESPECIALLY if the buyer is the one commenting on the problem. I would expect more from a developer charging $750/SF or more.
As for the 50/50 ownership, I think this has RENTAL written all over it, so that Hedreen can rent them and get some cash flow back vs. just waiting until 2020 for sales to pick back up.
The primary concern is if Hedreen retains a large percentage of condo's at Olive 8, or if a block is sold by auction to a non-resident investor (which is happening in Miami), can they then dominate the HOA and change the bylaws to allow rentals etc?
I've seen bylaws that allow any owner(s) with 20% or more ownership to force an immediate vote, regardless if the HOA board disagrees. I think they would still need 50% ownership to pass an amendment though, right?
$4850 for rent... wow. But, realistically, that probably doesnt cover the mortgage, taxes (probably $800+/month), HOA ($800+/month) and insurance on this puppy. So, likely a monthly loss for the investor, even if they could get someone to pay $4850.
Apparently it's the same unit offered up for rent earlier as the phone number is affiliated with a Williams Marketing sales agent, however this time the ad doesn't have a Williams Marketing logo on it.
Sad to see Williams Marketing own people getting involved in renting Olive8 units out.
From what I remember the asking price before was higher than the current asking rental price. I wonder - why such a big drop?
If you look at the "reply to" contact, its Ericka Clibborn of Williams Marketing. She's the onsite agent for Leona, another WM project that just dropped prices on a bunch of their units. She probably had to remove the Williams Marketing logo.
What do you guys think about Leslie Williams? I do not like her and get a bad vibe from her.
I received this email today... DO YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO GET BACK YOUR CONDO EARNEST MONEY DEPOSIT?
Find out before you walk away from TENS OF THOUSANDS of Dollars! One of the results of the current economic meltdown is a growing battle between the developers of condominiums and their buyers over substantial earnest money deposits (“EMDs”) that have been sitting for up to two years or more in escrow. These disputes arise because the deposits were put down BEFORE the mortgage market became dysfunctional and before the value of the buyers’ units plummeted below their 20-40% stated purchase prices. Additionally, the requirements regarding the percentage of units that must be pre-sold in order to get buyers federally insured financing have changed and tightened.
As might be expected, developers are very reluctant to agree to let buyers have their EMDs back, which may be many tens of thousands of dollars (typically 5% of the purchase price). They and their attorneys will tell buyers, often incorrectly, that they have no legal right to the return of their own money, along with the interest that has been earned on the EMD while sitting in escrow.
The truth is that you may well have a very strong legal basis, or several bases, to demand that your EMD be returned to you, along with the accrued interest, and even your attorneys’ fees. In order to know if you have such rights, you need to consult with an attorney experienced in reviewing condo purchase agreements, public offering statements, and related documents, and in negotiating with developers and their attorneys about EMDs.
We have successfully represented many buyers in several condo projects throughout Puget Sound in getting back their EMDs, either on a contingent fee (we only get paid if we get money for you) or on a straight hourly rate basis, or on a blended basis of the two methods.
Class action lawsuits are a red herring...careful if you decide to go that route...they always benefit the lawyers more than the individuals represented. Look - it's tough - but you signed an agreement and knew the risks. If you did this with a normal homeowner you wouldn't get the money back either - that's real estate 101! We've actually started to look at Olive 8 as a buying option...and yes if you check with any agent there have been recent closings there (I think I saw 3 in the last week according to our agent)...so people are buying...and this weekend we bumped into folks moving in...so all the doom and gloom on this blog is understandable but not helpful unless you are just here to vent. Getting loans for condos are super tough right now...but if you want to live downtown, there aren't many options...thus making any condo purchase a good long term investment. Just wanted to bring some objectivity to the discussion. :)
If you really want to be objective. Don't compare what has been the norm in real estate years ago or what you call "101". What happened to our economy is unprecendented and whether you like it or not you have to put this into consideration. What was disccused 2 -3 years ago with these buyers as far as "standard" loans practices are concerned are no longer applicable in today's economy. There needs to be consideration placed here for the buyers. If people are using this site to vent then respect them because it is their way of coping. Your quote "objectivity" is not adding comfort to people you are putting salt to a gaping wound and I think that is cruel and rude.
I know I took a risk, however, I "bought in " on the assumption that I was going to put 5% down. I was pre-qualified to put 5% down ( with their prefered onsite lender). that was my earnest money, that was what I was willing to risk and they agreed. NOW I am required to put 15% DOWN. I dont have it, and because of that, the developer gets to keep my 5% earnest money. It might be legal for them to do so, but it is tantamount to extortion imo.
After speaking with this law group about class action lawsuits, they would be recouping their attorney fees from the developer and the developer's insurance company, not from buyer deposits.
I agree a class action is not a great idea. They are risky and take forever, and it's the lawyers who make out.
As for 'if you want to live downtown, there aren't many options'...check the MLS. There are a ton of condo's on the market right now, and plenty of better deals than Olive 8's 2007 era pricing.
FWIW, Williams Marketing lost two of their major accounts this week, so they are probably hurting as well. I wonder how long the insiders who bought units to flip will be able to hold on.
They are risky because judges may be reluctant to certify the class, and because they tend to take longer than a regular lawsuit. Look at the Vista lawsuit that has been in the news for two years and just got thrown out.
One of the Olive 8 condo owners must step up to be the lead plaintiff. In the US they are generally not forced to pay the defendants legal costs if they lose the case, but it would still make me nervous.
In the end it's the lawyers who stand to make the most from a class action because they are more complex than a regular lawsuit, and the class members often receive little of value in the settlement - but there will always be a chunk of cash for the lawyers. If the settlement is binding on all members then you might end up with a lousy coupon good for your next condo purchase from Hedreen. :)
i work in the industry, and will be walking away from my earnest money deposit... i spoke with 2 appraisers about values on Olive8- they were quite clear that my unit would appraise for about 25% less than the contract price. i'd like to know how the hell there were closings without some sort of fraud going on? i mean, seriously... did people actually bring $$$ to the table to make up the difference? i'm not judging here, but i do want to know, since it seems *highly* suspect.
speaking of highly suspect, during one of the buyers events, I asked if I could bring my own appraiser, and they said NOOOO!!! and quickly moved on to another topic. the developer/williams could have been much more procative about this mess, but they have been ignoring it for months, and now it is blowing up in there face.
Ouch. That doesnt shock me about the -25% that the appraisers are suggesting. In simply looking at the other condos on the market, it is so quickly and very obvious that O8 is way overpriced. I, like probably many of you, wonder what I was thinking when I put down money. Surely I was expecting a higher quality product than what they delivered. Partly my own fault for being too trustworthy of Hedreen/Williams and the showroom, and partly Hedreen's underdelivery on quality and specifications in so many ways. So sad - even in a poor economy I think this building could have been a sucess if it had been built to the promised level of quality and details.
well i just closed my Olive 8 unit and it appraised out fine. the appraiser was picked by my lender and the value came out $25k higher than my purchase price !!
i move in tomorrow and the place looks fantastic !!
The punch list was complete, the concierge is helpful and nice, and the closing was smooth as can be.
Congratulations, Olive 8 closer! I'm happy for you - and jealous. I presume you got an early appointment through the Olive 8 pre-sale drawing. Williams "misplaced" 16 of the early applicants' paperwork, so they were not included in the drawing, possibly benefiting the insiders in getting the lower priced units.
i think the lottery was about a year before i got into town. but in any regard i didnt get the cheapest of the most expensive unit in the building thats for sure but i think it is a "typical" unit if there is such a thing.
You seem hestitant to share model unit number. You are a very lucky individual. Out of the hundereds of people dealing with these lending challenges and requriements you are the only one who managed to do it at 10% down with Countrywide. Would you mind sharing why your situation is unique?
-The building looks amazing and so does my reserved unit. Everything from head to toe is exceptional with this entire project
-My unit does not feel like 800 sqft+ at all, more like 650 or so....
-The quality re my unit is as expected, no let downs except the sqft and the carpet, it feels super cheap, unlike the model unit...
-The common areas look better than anticipated and the amenities are top of the line...
-I would not count on any discounts and concessions especially if you have anthing less that a 2 bed....that means most of you. Apparantly there is a demand for these units....they did sell a few last week...wouldn't be surpirsed if they actually raised the prices on few of these units on te hlower floors...
-I wouldn't count on walking away from your earnst money and being able to buy it back at 30% discount in 6 months...I really dont see price drops on the horizon for the smaller open and 1 bed units...especially on the lower floors...
-I wouldn't count on the developer handing back your money either if you walk....best bet is to hire your own lawyer if you really want to walk down that path....if you bought as investor unlike me, then I really don't have any sympathy for you...you took a risk and lost.....
if you want to live at O8 on a long term basis and have the capacity to close, I would do it.....if you are thinking short term you should walk and go buy something elsewhere, lots of really good deals out if you are a qualified buyer....
if you can't close, then maybe hire a lawyer and get some of your money back...
this is an unbiased opinion of the building and situation....
I'm another buyer who is closing soon with 10% down, but using two lenders to do it. I don't think this is unique. I reserved my home back in early 2006, during the initial presale.
Very well said, thanks for your thoughts. I agree, the one bedroom on the lower floors will probably sell better than the 2-bedroom floor plans. Especially if they are going to be required to cough out 20%. I don't think a lot of people would spend a lot of money for condos.
I also got approved with 10% down and I am also using 2 lenders to do it. I agree that my situation is not unique. I also reserved my home back in 2006 during the initial presale and I expect to be in the black with my investment.
I had a walk-thru this week and my closing coordinator said that about a dozen people had closed. My walk-thru was great- I used a lot of blue tape but my unit is wonderful. I have a 1B/1BA on a lower floor.
Wow, must have been another William's insider who got killer pricing up front. This is one of the best 1 bd floorplans too. What a great deal at 550/SF!
I overheard LW say at the last buyer's event that there were only 6 investors in the entire building...yeah right.
The definition of an "investment" buyer as I understand it, is one who has stated on their purchase and sales agreement that they were buying as an investment and would be seeking non-owner financing. Many other "flippers" or "investors" were buying as their primary residence or a "second" home. Time will tell how many actual speculators there were in the mix.
that floor plan is super weak in my opinion, its basically a studio....I bet it feels really small as well. My 814 sgft unit feels really cramped up. I can only imagine what 682 feels like plus there is no island or eating counter space....should be more of that floor plan coming to the market soon....
I understand the developer is willing to help any buyer with their deposit requirements in the form of a second 5yr loan. Not a bad option if you really want to live there, and believe the market will be in a better place in 5 years!
say i reserved at 500k, already have my 5% in, so i need another 15% to get the conventional loan. the developer loans me that 15% (75k) which has to be paid back in five years
by my math, that's a payment on a second loan at $1250/month even on an interest rate of zero
I believe they are offering interest only loans, so in 5 years you would have to either refinance that portion (hopefully that will be much easier in 5yrs!) or pay it off. Depending on the rates they are offering, your monthly payment would be somewhere between $312 (5%) and $437 (7%) per month.
I just toured and was underwhelmed with the finish level and overall layout. I was expecting something more upscale for the price. Some of the plans don't make sense e.g. the tiny little den is too small for anything. The pool and fitness center looks nice though.
The agent said owners have a guaranteed rate of $155 night for guests, but I checked online and you can get a room at Hyatt at Olive 8 for $174 a night, so that's hardly much value.
The hotel arrangement concerns me. The hotel, pool and restaurant was absolutely empty at what is normally peak hour. How long will they stay in business? What is the net effect on condo owners if the Hyatt was to close their doors?
Someone is reselling #2708 at their cost, including agent fees, for $578 a square foot...see http://www.shriber.com/olive8/
With #2209 at $550 a square foot, it didn't take long for the flippers to establish the bottom of the market quickly. If these properties are due to close in May, there will be a lot of downward pressure on pricing in the next 60 days once mortgage payments come due.
Good question you pose. I bet Urbane is belly up within 6 months. I havent seen anyone in there and there menu is not built for the economic situation taking place right now. Sounds like they run in the same circles as Leslie Williams and her crack team.
What about lunch and dinner? A restaurant cannot depend on revenue from breakfast alone.
On a side note, we had breakfast there last Sunday. We ordered an entree each, with OJ and coffee. Cost was around $50 for two - not including tax and tip. I consider that to be a fairly expensive breakfast - especially compared to the competition such as Saltys etc. in that price range.
Has anyone received an email from Leslie Williams directly with tremendous pressure to close??? I have and was quite alarm by it, particularly when I've never dealt with her directly before. Not sure why she would contact me directly since she's the broker - that's like the listing agent contacting the buyer and bypassing the buyer's agent. At minimum, she go through my agent instead of contacting me. At any rate, I don't think that kind of communication is appropriate.
I received the same email and completely agree with you about how inappropriate it was. Blew me away how unprofessional it was. I felt like I was trying to be intimidated.
From the developers statement on the website (calling us "differentiators") to this email from Leslie Williams to the quote in the paper ("if the downturn continues, we may have to revisit [prices]”), I just can't believe how Williams Marketing and the developer is handling this situation. There's such a high level of arrogance coming from those running the show.
I ran into David Thyer earlier this week and had an opportunity to ask him about his comments to Eric Pryne. He stated that Pryne had somewhat mis-characterized his comments. When asked about what Hedreen would do if the housing market continued to slide over the next SEVERAL years, he had responded that they would obviously have to re-think their pricing on units that remained available in 2010, but that he was more confident that the market would have seen significant improvement rather than further deterioration by then. Typical headline distortion/creation stuff by Pryne.....
The Seattle market is lagging national trends so it has yet to see a bottom in housing (CS index still at 154 while CA index is around 120 now). So to think that there will be a "significant improvement" in a years time is ridiculous and uninformed. Even if Seattle bottoms out by year end, 2010 and 2011 will be tough years for sellers.
Hello, I am a buyer and have closed and moved in. I have been quiet on this blog and have not posted. I just wanted to let you know that after you close you will not get any return phone calls or emails or anything concerning your warranty items or maintenance issues. I waited 10 days to get my shower drain fixed. Something that I did not notice during the walk-thru. The seller or CWD or Flask, or whoever is in charge simply does not care about the current home owners, 10 days is too long to wait with standing water. All I can say is that when you go on your walk thru note everything and make sure that it is fixed before you close otherwise you may be waiting months before anything is taken care of. I am curious if any of the other homeowners have run into stuff also. BTW my heater/AC was out for 3 days before I had someone come by to fix it.
Wow....thanks for the post. Its great to get some insight from those that have already moved in. A lot of us are still sitting on the fence.
I imagine Leslie Williams is getting involved now because every time a buyer walks away, she also loses 3% of the transaction ($20-40K). She sure has incentive to rope those buyers in! I actually think its pretty funny that she's getting desperate.
Oddly, the prices that Hedreen valued each unit at is roughly half the price they are trying to sell them for. Other condo's I've looked at haven't done that - the developer holds the unit at a price close to the sales figure.
For example, #2708 that is reselling on Redfin for $620k is listed at King County with an appraised value of $301k for tax year 2009.
The first year's tax assessment is hardly a figure to go by when attempting to determine it's true market value because the county is only valuing the land and not the actual condo unit. Thus, it's typically low the first year and gets adjusted by the following year.
Normally, I would share with you what she wrote; however, since the material is specific and sensitive, I'm afraid that it may give it away. Just know that her notes are not genuine and sinncere, rather contentious, in your face and imtidating...
I'm a pre-sale buyer at Olive 8 and it looks like I'm going to walk away from the purchase as well. I've spent some considerable time thinking about the opportunity and have posted my analysis at http://www.inspiredstartup.com/my-23750-mistake-at-olive-8/
For those that have decided not to close, have you considered that the developer has a right to sue for damages if the buyer walks away? They can also bring suit to enforce the P&S agreement. The P&S agreement is very clear about this. Did you not consider this a strong possibility and therefore decided to walk?
He can also choose to forfeit the liquidated damages and sue for actual damages, which if the unit is sold for less than the contract, would be the amount of the difference. Thanks for your maturity, "dummbaz".
the poster making claims about being sued for damages obviously not a buyer and does not have a copy of the contract. the "election of remedies section" is clear that the "remedy" for walking is forfiture of earnest money... and thats it! This sole remedy was stipulated and chosen by the developer. In some contract cases you can be sued for damages, but not in this contract, so whoever said that you are wrong... sorry.
For those readers that are not buyers at Olive 8 and are interested in looking at the exact contract language to follow along with the discussion, see:
"Anyone see that Williams Marketing listed a bunch of units only to change the status to "pending".
Are they really getting that desperate that they've started to play MLS games?"
This isn't done to game the MLS, but rather to more accurately account for unit sales in the MLS database. In the past, new construction units were rarely represented in the MLS database, which skewed the stats. I believe, though I'm not certain, the NWMLS is now requiring that sales at new construction now be added.
I was just reading www.urbnlivn.com and someone made a post on there announcing that Escala, of all places, will be turning to luxury apartments. Can anyone confirm this? Those will be some fancy apartments, rents must be crazy!
I think thats just a rumor, I cant imagine how that would pencil out for the developer. In any event if it is true, hedreen will be more likely to just stay the course because half of the competition would have just been eliminated.
would not pencil at all....it's a last resort option....but what is the alternative option, foreclose???
Hedreen's competition is escala only on a much smaller scale. His biggest threat is unemployment rates, sinking real estate values, a poor economy, zero consumer confidence, etc....just like the rest of us....
it would be a legal mess and I don't see that as a viable option at all....their construction lender is just going to have to work with them on this matter with extensions and modifications....Hedreen is a wealthy player, he will make it but with a few bruises and bumps like everyone else out there....
Hedreen may be wealthy, but you can be sure Olive 8 LLC is a separate entity underwritten by bank financing, and subject to the constraints thereto. There is no way a developer would personally underwrite a project like Olive 8 which costs hundreds of millions of dollars. Not even Paul Allen does that.
Condo to apartment conversions happen all the time. Just look at Miami. Usually a private investor steps in, buys up all the unsold units at a discount (or at foreclosure). Then they hold enough votes to change all HOA terms to allow 100% rentals.
Existing owners usually get the shaft, although the investor may offer to buy them out.
Going apartments will still be tough for Olive 8. The massive Olivian apartments across the road just opened and has amazing amenities. Aspira apartments are one block away and will be open later this year. Ironically Aspira was originally a condo project but the developer saw the writing on the wall.
Keep in mind that Hedreen is in business to own and operate hotels, that is what they do and they are very good at at. The first 15 floors are a hotel. I would think a conversion to some sort of hotel operation would be more likely for some of the floors.
The olivian next door to olive 8 is open now and you can tour it. I went on friday ( opening day) Im no contravtor or any kind of expert on the matter, but the finish level and quality is AMAZING. no I dont work for olivian, I have a reservation at olive8. I am not sure if olive8 delivered the kind of quality and attention to detail I saw at the olivian. everything just exuded quality, 10 and 1/2 ft ceilings, The unit doors are 8ft solid oak with a marble soround. and the common areas are nicer than the four seasons. I dont know how well they will rent in this environment( theyll probably be forced to come down in $ in the months ahead) but it is nicer than almost any condo offering Ive seen.
I looked at the Olivian as well and completely agree with your thoughts. It's what Olive8 should have been. Save the pool and workout area (amenities not included in the HOD's at Olive8 anyway) the Olivian has completely schooled Olive8 in finishes and amenities.
More reason not to go through with my purchase next month at O8.
you guys are trippin....olive 8 is way nicer than the olivian..the exterior design of the olivian is superior though....asetically Olive8's design is very simple and almost can be considered to be lackluster....
finsh quality, amenities, etc , etc...olive 8 carries heavier weight....however I will give the olivian the crown for a rental tower in Seatte though....as for now...
"Hedreen may be wealthy, but you can be sure Olive 8 LLC is a separate entity underwritten by bank financing"
doesn't matter...construction money is recourse based financing and Hedreen still signs as the guarantor. If the deal goes upside down then Hedreen is not personally proteced by olive 8 LLC, he is still on the hook $ perosonally for repayment of the construction loan. The LLC protcets him from civil liabilities not financial obligations when you gurantee a recourse loan....
I am unable to find closed sales on the King County metro web site. When you put in the 2 parcel numbers shown, you can't locate the excise tax affidavits. Last time I looked, I counted 12-13 closed. Anyone have any clue how to find out how many have actually closed to date?
Go to King County public records search and search for Ollive 8 but narrow the search to only pull up warranty deeds. These deeds show up as quickly as the same day.
Some very interesting trends here. It looks like the buyer of 2002 and 2104 must have purchased after the initial offering as they paid much more for their unit as the the same units above. Didn't they find this blog? Did they have money to waste? Why not negotiate??
Or what about 2203, which paid $210,000 more than the same floorplan four floors below? Is 4 floors worth $210,000 to you?
And similarly, 2307 paid $100,000 more than the same floor plan on 2107.
Now I understand that there are differences in upgrades, but these are significant price differences!
And the biggest winner?? Leslie Williams was the only buyer that was able to purchase in the 300K price range. The benefits of being the listing broker!
Lessons to learn from this for all of your buyers that have NOT yet closed....do your due dilligence! Compare prices of previously closed units. Don't over pay! Negotiate with the builder! Use this public knowledge to help you!
How about 2104, closing at a price that is 115k higher than a unit on a higher floor. Ouch!
So if we assume that floors 18-22 should have closed by 5/6/09, that should have been 49 units closed by that same date (according to the website). Being there are 17 closings, it looks like the conversation rate is about 35%.
Figure there are few stragglers in there (let's say five) and the number is more like 45%. WOW!
Say this rate (45%) continues all the way up the building, after all is done the building will be appx 36% occupied (based on the assumption that 80% of the units are already reserved).
To me this looks like 1803 and 2103 got great deals. Probably purchased much earlier but 2203 still needed to appraise so the value must be there. I think those who purchased late in the game should try and renegotiate their purchase price.
I agree with the appraisal comments. I dont think too may people would close if the appraisal is not there. Appraisals are pretty accurate espically now days as banks will not loan if values are not there.
Many people on this blog seem to think Olive 8 is not a good building and a complete rip off. My opinion is that its an amazing building. I do think the values are there right now. I think the values will be there in the long term. I am choosing not to close as it is a stretch for me personally and am not sure what values will do when there are 150+ units on the market and if I need to sell within the next year or two it will be too risky.
I think those of us who bought early and do not close will be kicking ourselves in 5 years.
The Olive 8 website shows 6 units sold on level 18, and 10 on level 19. The lower level units started closing in March, when this blog was started, and it appears they are up to level 27 now since one has closed there.
It doesn't take two months to close a real estate purchase, so all of the pre-sold level 18 and 19 units should be closed by now unless there is some delay in financing/valuation/inspection.
According to this list, as of this week only 3 have closed on level 18 and another 2 on level 19. So what is happening with the other 3 + 8 units?
Are they 11 people who are walking away from their earnest money or whose financing fell through? I don't get it.
I heard that they sold 3 a couple of weeks ago, but they were all resales (ie, the buyer backed out). Those types of transactions won't be closing right away.
Buyers *are* asking the WM to resell their units. My guess is that they're not going to update the website just yet for the buyers that aren't closing.
A review of the KC public records indicates that 15 unites closed in the month of April, while only 7 have closed in May. Let us not forget that the building is closing from the bottom up, with the more affordable units being on the lower floors. So as the closings continue, I believe we'll see less and less buyers close when they see that the 7-10 units directly below them are now available at a lesser price.
Things are not looking good for Hedreen. Why doesn't he follow suit with Vulcan and Enso?? Why not proactively offer price reductions to those that have reserved units? The problem I have is that these are things that MANY Olive 8 buyers voiced at the beginning of this year. But did Williams Mkting or Hedreen listen? No! Instead, they tried to act like nothing was happening. Well, it is now backfiring and they have a 50% drop in closings in May vs. April.
To all of you buyers that remain on the fence....DEMAND a price reduction and negotiate!
"Things are not looking good for Hedreen. Why doesn't he follow suit with Vulcan and Enso??"
Keep in mind that the "new owners" took possession of 100% of the space on the hotel floors. Thus, from the perspective of the cost of the *whole* building, Hedreen's already pulled in a big chunk of the expected revenue they needed to get out of the building from the Hyatt folks. That probably puts Hedreen in a much better position now than an all-condo or condo+empty office space project would be.
Add in all the money Hedreen gets to keep from the walk-aways - not exactly chump change - and Hedreen may in fact be doing all right.
Regards to Hedreen..... Yes, he has 17 floors occupied by the Hyatt. But I believe Hedreen also is part owner of the Hyatt at Olive8 hotel. And the hotel looks nice, but I'm not sure if they've hit their goals yet.
Also, the earnest deposits that buyers are losing are likely to be locked up in negotiations/litigation for months. At the same time, construction loans are coming due. From the position Hedreen was in 6 months ago compared to now, he's definitely in a tough situation. The point I was making earlier was that Hedreen should have been proactive in recognizing the current market. He could have addressed this issue 6 months ago and more buyers would have possibly continued with their purchase. Instead, he and Williams Mrkting held to their prices. Now they are in seeing a dominoe effect. Because the lower floor units are not closing, the higher floor units will also not close. They should have offered a price reduction to buyers individually like Enso is doing.
Significant blunder in my opinion. It seems like they were trying to pull a fast on the buyers. The closed transcation figures make me very nervous about closing.
At first glance it appears the dollar goes alot further elsewehere, almost everywhere.
I'm sure the hotel probably isn't hitting its goals - not a lot of lit windows at night. But still, it creates a much different situation for Hedreen than Vulcan.
Perhaps enough so that he doesn't have to recognize the current market. If the books work out right, then he may not have to care much about the walkaways.
I'm walking away. There are some great deals out there & considerably cheaper than Olive 8. While the finishes are a little bit better, the value isn't there. I just looked at a 1400+ sq foot condo at 2200 for $550K.
I don't feel price concessions would work. They'd have to do an across the board cut (everyone gets a 5% drop) or none at all. Anything less and it'd be unfair to those that locked in at an early price. And will a 5% price drop really make that much of a difference in finding financing? Probably not.
ReplyDeleteA large majority will be dropping out due to their inability to finance the unit. I'd rather see help with securing financing. Most people love the building and do want to close however are very very timid about doing so. Many just simply can't (put me in that category). For a good majority of us our only option is Countrywide. I've spoken to several Wells Fargo agents and the only way WF can finance is with a 25% down payment. Ouch.
I'd think help with a down payment would be better in lieu of a price drop. We already have our 5% locked up in earnest money and Countrywide is requiring at a minimum 10%. Help us out somehow with that remaining 5% and then we can start talking. So many have been devastated by the market the last year that coming up with that added 5% is a deal breaker.
Just my two cents. I do doubt we'll see any concessions from the developer outside a gift basket waiting on the kitchen counter after closing. :(
I too am doubtful that the developer will offer any concessions. However, I think it would be worth a try. And in this market, the developer should be willing to do a lot to keep their buyers buying.
ReplyDeleteI think a price drop is possible, even required, at this point. Doing some checking, other condos in cities like San Francisco and LA have seen price drops of 15-20% offered across the board (including all pre-sales) by the developer. I think once Olive 8 sees that no one is closing on the first few floors, they will be forced to do a 15%+ price drop to salvage the rest of their pre-sales. Ideally, they would offer this before the first few floors start walk throughs. I think this is likely the only way they will be able to retain over 50% of the current pre-sales.
ReplyDeleteI don't think a price drop is possible, but would be interested in hearing a response from Hedreen. If we had 20 buyers that were ready to walk unless there was a price reduction, I'd be he'd be willing to listen.
ReplyDeleteThe 60 story Millennium Tower in San Francisco is as nice or nicer than Olive 8 - it has a Michael Mina restaurant rather than a Hyatt bar, and the penthouses are 3x the cost of Olive 8. They cut condo prices 15% in January for all buyers.
ReplyDeleteOlive 8 should follow suit!
I agree. I think a 15-20% reduction would be fair. I'd be much more likely to close with this type of price reduction. However, if people start closing, then there's no way they'd reduce prices. Its either all the buyers get reductions, or none. Since it looks like they're starting closings already, price reductions won't happen.
ReplyDelete15-20% sounds about right. I think a lot of the people planning to walk could be convinced otherwise with a drop of that magnitude. I have no problem closing if I know in advance I am losing 10-15% of value the day I move in - it is a long-term investment for me, and I am pretty sure in 5-8 years or so the markets will recover at least 10% from where we are now. But, that would mean a 15% or even 20% drop from the peak 2007 prices that we all paid. I agree they should follow suit with the Millennium Tower in SF ASAP.
ReplyDeleteFYI....Gallery Condos in Belltown just dropped their prices from $20,000 to $100,000 on 18 units! These are brand new units that began closing in the fall of 2008! Just imagine if you closed on a unit! This just confirms that I won't plan on closing on my reservation at Olive 8!!
ReplyDeleteLooks like that is about a 15-20% drop for Gallery - right in line with what we are saying Olive 8 needs to drop.
ReplyDeleteLooks like other than Gallery, three other Williams Marketing projects are dropping prices!
ReplyDelete-Brix
-Ruby
-Leona
(info from urbnlivn.com)
What's the possibility that Williams will suggest that Olive8 drop their prices after they finish working through all of the purchase and sale agreements?? Extremely high in my opinion.
Sure, but not for those with purchase agreements unless the appraisals come way low. Besides, keeping non-closing buyers' earnest money will soften the hit for the seller.
ReplyDeleteLike the previous post, I believe the developer will cut prices after they've finished working through the purchase agreements. My plan is to forfeit my earnest deposit and then rent a unit in the building. In 6-12 months, when the prices drop, then I'll reconsider purchasing and probably more than recoup my lost earnest deposit of $30,000. The only way I would reconsider is if the developer offered a price reduction up-front.
ReplyDeleteFYI...sales center will be open on March 26th for Buyer Only Event. They'll host it at the entertainment room on the 18th floor and they'll have a unit on the 19th floor.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone want to meet up again? Its getting closer to my closing and I'd like to hear from anyone that has started the process.
Has anyone brought their concerns to Hedreen or Thyer??
thanks to whomever started the blog, I learned of it over at skyscrapercity.
ReplyDeleteI am planning to forfeit my deposit and buy when they drop prices as well, and Im 99% sure they will. All you have to do is look at other projects, how would olive8 somehow defy every other project and be able to maintain their pricing. I know of not a single project that has maintained original pricing outside of a p&s. It is starting to make the whole idea of getting in early look like more of a shackle than a benefit. If the developer/ williams was even slightly transparent about these horrible conditions, I might reconsider, but they have said nothing. I question how they conduct business, and how they will deal with unsold inventory. obviously it is in their best interest to close units instead of keeping the 5%, so what the heck are they thinking? ( sorry im a little heated). maybe they think if they give us more wine and cheese at another event well throw caution to the wind and just forget that realestate, the economy, local businesses, jobs, and ironically hotels are tanking. my partner and I love the building , and would love to live there, but with the way things are playing out and the total lack of response from the developer, it is making us feel like walking from our deposit might be the least risky move.
I wrote the above post, but I am asking myself where are all the buyers? either:
ReplyDelete1) they are going to close and dont care about market etc.
2) they dont know about the blog... yet
3) they are NOT going to close, they just dont see the need to go blog about it like nerds like me.
I for one am going to advocate this blog at the next buyers event ( actually I dont know how well that will go over), mainly because I want to know what others are planning to do, as every persons decision effects every other persons decision. It would be very beneficial for all buyers to know where all buyers stand. If someone doesnt close,that leaves a vacant unit for the developer to deal with via price drop, rental, etc. that effects EVERYONE!
How about NO CLOSING COSTS? That might entice some people to hang on to their units. The 15-20% price drop would be great too. Those that close now are at an extreme disadvantage in the marketplace, as many other new projects are priced much lower and it will take 10 years to get that appreciation back with the way the economy is right now. We are 99% sure we are walking at this point. It seems the LEAST risky move. I wish I could get my earnest money back, or even half of it back!
ReplyDeleteHas anyone used an attorney to fight the developer on getting Earnest Money back? Should we all band together with an attorney and see what we can do?
the deveoper is in an incredibly difficult situation. I also beleive that Hedreen is a very good/reputable developer. I am sure they have meetings,proposals, run scenerios, etc. I am sure they have already planned for every possible outcome. They already know what they will do with unsold units, they already know what they will do if most people walk.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is they will not be forthright about their plans if the plans themselves would be seen as a negative to buyers.
So when I think about it, any statement they make will be "political" designed to comfort or give confidence to buyers.
Essentially what Im saying is this: anything other than concessions, or something IN WRITING about what they plan to do with unsold inventory is probably worthless. Developers do care about their reputation, but they care about profit and reputation... in that order.
I am trying to find an instance anywhere in the country where pre-sale buyers ( or any buyers for that matter)banded together and were able to influence a developer. I know it sounds great, but I dont think its been done. Does anyone know if this has been done with any success?
ReplyDeleteI know of two attorneys that would be willing to meet with Olive8 buyers. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if either will do a contingency only type settlement. I'm not interested in putting more money into this. I know that if you hire an attorney, the Williams Marketing/Olive8 team WILL stop talking to you. So timing is important here.....
ReplyDeleteI sincerely hope they make some kind of announcement/acknowledgment at the buyers event.
ReplyDeleteI also think it would be good to get more buyers active on the blogs just to see what their plans are.
instead of dropping prices, why not massive buy downs in rates?
ReplyDeletethis would be easier than a price drop, would encourage everyone to hold onto their unit since they have such a low rate and would make reselling the existing inventory easier
BTW - does anyone have any updates on the Fannie issue? Last I heard, this project was not Fannie approved? Please correct me if I'm wrong and that developer was going to apply for something like a PARs???
ReplyDeleteI haven't heard if they were able to get Fannie approved. I'm sure they'll announce that next week.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I just saw that Enso in SLU is offering the following:
-price reduction on 8 units to their "pre-opening" prices
-no HO dues until Dec 2010!!! Thats at least a $5000 savings!
-$8500 towards closing costs
-$500 donation to a SLU non-profit in your name
Developer of Olive8.....PAY ATTENTION! Just because you have buyers on contract, doesn't mean they'll stay on contract!
Olive8 buyers.....we need to hold out and threaten to walk unless we have some sort of concessions! If you really think the developers of Olive 8 won't offer these concessions in 6 months for their unsold inventory, you're crazy!
I like the rate buy down idea. I've never heard this done before. Is this possible?? Has this happened anywhere else (San Fran, Vegas, Florida)??
ReplyDeleteI agree, let's get more buyers on this blog. Share the blog address with others at the buyer's event next week.
anyone on who reads this blog should really tell others about it at the next buyers event. This is not about trying to put one over on the developer, this is about protecting your interests, money and investment ( the largest you will likely ever make ) believe me, the developer is going to do everything they can to protect their interest. TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THE BLOG!
ReplyDeleteFYI - just received an email from a representative of Williams Marketing advertising a $125K price drop on one of the units at the Leona project. Not sure how many have sold there. It appears to be a much smaller project than Olive 8.
ReplyDeleteSo for Olive 8, let's assume 80% pre-sold, so that would be roughly 158 and of that, let's assume a 50% buyers execute on their contracts - that's 79 homes sold out of 198. That means the developer is left with 119 units. With that many units in inventory, can you imagine what the price drop would be to move them???
to those that are having trouble posting here do this:
ReplyDelete-write your post
-choose anonymous
-type in the words it tells you to type.
you will then recieve some message about the post not working, just repeat the process and it will go through... basically you have to do it twice. ( I dont know why this is the case, but it has happened everytime I post)
can whoever is maintaining the blog fix that? I fear it preventing a lot of posts.
ReplyDeleteyou have to post comments twice in order for it to work
unless I get something in writing about what the developer is going to do with unsold units, I am going to forfeit my 5%... that is a lot of money for me, but enso condos just 2 blocks away from olive8 cut some prices 25% on select units... vulcan has VERY deep pockets and even they are cutting prices.
ReplyDeleteAll:
ReplyDeleteI am not an attorney but I work with them on a daily basis. I am an expert hired by attorney to testify inside and outside the court system. Litigation is the wrong way to go because this would take a very long process and it is very expensive. Litigation may take years because of our court system. Your best bet is to go for arbitration. This is the quickest, cheapest and most practical way to recover your money in full of partial. Not sure if you guys know what artbitration is, but for the purposes of discussion, this is decided by an arbitrator mutually selected by both the defense and plaintif counsel. This process is conducted outside the court system and the results are almost immediate.
Here are few suggestions that I would like to offer:
1. Gather as many people as possible and collectively decide on a legal counsel. The more the better because your attorney fees would be almost insignificant.
2. Start a dialouge with an attorney and discuss important terms and these terms should be made contingent on the outcome of arbitration. Be clear (well documented terms) on attorneys fees and % of money that would go to the firm once settled. You can also arrange for the Olive 8 to pay your attorney's fees if the arbitration results rule in your favor. You also would like to be clear with the attorney that if the verdict is against the group that you are not willing to put out more money out of your pocket. All these could be discussed with your lawyer.
I know you guys don't know me but trust me this would be your best approach.Securing the services of an attorney would be imperative and do it quickly because you close of escrow if fast-approaching.
Hope this helps.
Here is the link to the list of current projects that are fannie mae approved and their expiratioin dates in the state of Washington... not many here and no Olive 8.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.efanniemae.com/syndicated/documents/dps/condopud/WA.pdf
To the Enso posts above: Enso is cutting prices on "select" units at because they are trying to reach the 70% presale level so they can apply for the fanniemae approval. The 8 units that have been selected for the special pricing have been reduced between 20% - 26% of their original pricing from early 2007. It will be interesting to see how that plays out with current buyers, but, who would want to close on a unit when their neighbor just purchased for 25% less. If you still really want to be in the project... then walk from 5% earnest money, wait 1 month and purchase at the new "current market price" which will definitely be less as we are in a declining market and there will be a tremendous amount of inventory hitting the market this year and early 2010 making for furious competition.
ReplyDeleteI agree with arbitration vs. litigation approach. If we go to litigation and file a suit in District court we are looking at late 2010 for the court date and most likely it will take 2 - 5 years for a ruling. Then... you still have to collect. If we want to seek arbitration then time is of the essence and we need to band together now.
ReplyDeleteHey... about the buyer event and getting the word out about the blog: Let's make postcard or business size cards or on card stock paper with a message and the blog address. Hand them out to everyone at the event.
ReplyDeleteall those who are not planning on closing need to group together and approach the developer stating their intentions not to close
ReplyDeleteif a team of 30 approaches the developer he'll have to listen
If you are all interested, I'd be willing to facilitate another buyer's only event. I would invite all of the buyer's that are NOT planning on closing. I would invite two different attorneys to attend (at differing times) to present how they could help us. Or, we could meet separately before setting a date to meet with the attorneys. At this time, I know that Craig Blackmon and Steve Crane are attorneys that could potentially help us. Thoughts??
ReplyDeleteWith regards to having to post twice....has anyone else had this problem? I have never needed to post twice, and I have posted both anonymously and under my name.
ReplyDeleteI am the one who whoe wrote the instructions because of someone on seattlecondosandlofts said they couldnt post
ReplyDeleteeverytime I post I have to click "post comment" twice, and type in the security word twice.
I figured I would share it in case it happened to anyone else
i know some of us are receiving lower square footage that was originally stated (i was personally shorted 10 square feet)
ReplyDeletehow will this affect our purchase price?
I am all for banding together and looking into arbitration. There is definite strength in numbers. If we get enough people together and we don't win, at least we tried, and the cost will be much less than litigation.
ReplyDeleteAs an FYI....12 Queen Anne Condos went to auction on 3/21/09 and they all sold for 60-70% off of the original price.
ReplyDeleteWould Olive8 ever get to this point????
I am very surprised that the developer has made no comment on what they would do with unsold inventory, I am sure they dont want to open a can of worms, but there cannot be a single buyer who hasnt thought of this.
ReplyDeletethe developer is burying their head in the sand and hoping most people close... good luck with that.
Are you sure that sq/ft is less than what is on sales and purchase agreement? If that is verifiable you could back out of your contract if you want w/ earnest money. BTW, how did you figure that out?
ReplyDeleteBy the way, which floor plan is less in SQ/FT?
ReplyDelete$500+ price tag for per square foot. 10sq/ft less = min. $5000 builder is shorting you.
ReplyDeletedoes anyone know if anyone has closed yet? I think somemclosings were supposed to take place this week.
ReplyDeleteAfter looking through my paperwork I didn't see anything regarding square footage, only the unit number.
ReplyDeleteLooks like you're basically SOL if the actual square footage comes in less than the advertised amount.
Opinions?
Just saw the first Olive8 unit for resale on Redfin. They must have just closed on the unit this week. 2 br 2ba for almost $900/sf! Lets see how long this unit stays on the market before the price starts to drop.
ReplyDeleteif there are "significant material changes" that is grounds for getting your money back.
ReplyDeletethe tough part is proving what a significant material change is. a few investors at 1521 condos tried unsuccessfuly to get out of the contract that way. They cited ceiling height discrepencies. It was not enough of a "significant material change".
I do know that square footage would work, but not 10 sqft, I think it could be shown that that is not significant.
I did a search on King County Records and there has been no recent activity. I searched under "Olive 8 LLC" and the last activity that I saw was Hedren doing a quit claim to Olive 8 LLC releasing himself from being personally liable, Back in February. I doubt that there has been any closings yet.
ReplyDeleteYup, David Thyer is, as of Feb. 6th 2009, president of R.C. Heedren Co. and Manager of Olive 8 LLC. So, what these all mean to Olive 8?
ReplyDeleteOlive8 closings will not show up on the KC Records for at least a few weeks. I believe there have been closings already, and thus the listing on Redfin. We'll find out tonight!
ReplyDeleteI went to the event, but had to leave early, any good info?
ReplyDeletenegative, nothing at all
ReplyDeletecan't say i was too impressed either. i was on the fence whether i was going to close or not, but this pushes me more to the "probably wont" side. not entirely on that site quite yet, still up in the air, so we'll see if the developer has anything up his sleeve to push us back in the other direction
I was pretty late to the event so didnt have much time to look at all of the units. Was a bit underwhelmed with what I saw, but certain things were nice. The kitchens were all quite nice most definitely. Some other elements were disappointing however like the standard doors (not the Ramplus, those rock) and some of the dimensions seemed smaller than expected. I will have to go back with a tape measure and compare to the floorplan, but I think the unit was a bit smaller than stated.
ReplyDeleteI know that the purchase agreement stated that there may be minor differences between the floorplan and final product. I just wonder what is considered minor vs. when we would be able to receive our deposits back. I dont know about you, but a room that is 2 feet (my guess) narrower than the floorplan seems to be quite F'ing major, and if that is the case would require some major concessions from the developer in return.
Any other opinions?
I was not impressed. I saw uneven floors and bedroom sliding doors that did not close flush with the wall. My unit seemed significantly smaller than my floorplan suggested. It honestly felt like the developer rushed and cut corners in doing so. I heard the developer's rep tell a buyer that they wouldn't fix an uneven floor. He told her that the purchase agreement allowed the developer this leeway. So if you expect to get out of your contract during the walk-through, good luck!
ReplyDeleteThe turn-out was not was not that great in my own opinion. The units available for viweing were not that impressive. The lower floors absolutely have a lot of privacy issues due to the proximity of the Qwest building and Wells Fargo offices. You almost need to keep your blinds down permanently. You don't get to appreciate it not until you are in these units. I perhaps was expecting a lot more considering this is high-end Hyatt product. I think the developer really needs to re-evaluate their pricing now that the finished product is here for people to feel and touch.
ReplyDeleteI thought that overall the product looked pretty good. Some floor level issues are to be expected in high-rise concrete construction. I thought they probably could have done a better job in preparation for the event in getting some of the punchlist work (indicated as I was told by the blue tape everywhere) completed, but at least they intend to make the fixes and generally they looked pretty minor.
ReplyDeleteThe lounge/deck areas are going to be great. Can't wait to see the final furnishings (again, I was told they are still coming!).
Compared to the competition, ie: Four Seasons and 1521, I still think we are getting a great value.
Great value? How do you figure that? Did you not know price of condos in Seattle are falling. Also, since sq/ft less than stated on the blue print, you definitely are not getting value of any kind.
ReplyDeletewell, looks like we all got out response from the developer:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.olive8.com/ValueProp/Olive_8_Differentiators.pdf
"R.C. Hedreen will own the Olive 8 building with its partner, the Hyatt Corporation, as a long-term investment. Hedreen is a local, long-time developer with roots in the Seattle area that go back nearly 50 years. Their excellent reputation is based on the fact that they retain ownership of their buildings, so quality and high performance are their bottom line. Some developers build with the intent of selling as soon as the building is out of the ground, so they may be less inclined to invest in quality for the long term. The economic health of the community where Hedreen employees live and work is vital to them."
You have to be kidding me.
I hope that's not what we were all waiting for.
Did anyone get a letter from Olive 8?
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know how the 50/50 ownership split between hotel and condos would make a functioning management structure for ensuring the maintenance of the building? Having a slight majority is more practical. this post references the KC property records: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=33330276&postcount=762
ReplyDeleteLOL, regarding the PDF of 'differentiators'. Translation:
ReplyDeleteCome on you bunch of simpletons! Cant you realize that Olive 8 is so different and unique that it will buck the trends being faced by every single home and condo project in Seattle, nay America!
R.C Hedreen owning the building long term = no auctions but conversion to apartments if sales don't go well
ReplyDeleteHas anyone else been told from the onsite agents to expect the developer to propose something regarding the current market conditions?
ReplyDeleteI really hope the pdf posted on the website was not that.
Hello, I'm interested in buying in Olive 8, specifically the 00 floor plan. If anyone is trying to get out of their contract before closing, please let me know.
ReplyDeleteseattlecondobuyer @ gmail.com
With all due respect to you seattlecondobuyer. There is a lot of 00 floor plan still on the market. Just curious would you rather deal with a re-sale than going directly to Olive 8?
ReplyDelete1) I'm not sure if the pre-sale prices are lower than the current listing prices. I'd like to know.
ReplyDelete2) Right now all of the 00 floor plans are owned by the same entity, and they have reasons to hold firm on the prices to avoid the price guarantee problems.
3) Parking. Olive 8 no longer has spare spots to sell. A current contract holder might.
I'm certainly not against going through Olive 8, but I'm against overpaying.
seattlecondobuyer @ gmail.com
The price guarantee released by Olive 8 few months ago is not going to stick according to a couple of lawyers I spoke to. Apprently it is time sensitive not sure what timeline they were talking about but both attorneys said the price gurantee is tricky so I guess we need to read that document again and see if there are gaps that would allow the developer to adjust their prices based on the current economic condition specifically in Seattle. Olive 8 needs to look around their competitors. Many of them have adjusted their prices as a response to the ever-changing market. No one is going to be spared regardless of their reputation and this not directed only to Olive 8 this is a reality that needs to be addressed by all developers.
ReplyDeleteIs this the first rental at Olive 8? $1795 for a 1 bed/1 bath.
ReplyDeletehttp://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/1100884053.html
Can someone remind me what the rental restrictions are? I think it is in the paperwork somewhere. I seem to recall it was minimum one year rental.
Yes, I saw Erica there the other night at the buyer's event and she was quite excited about how her unit turned out. I believe it was the 09 floor plan that faces West, just north of the Qwest building. According to Williams Marketing, there were only 6 investors who bought, but I have a feeling there were actually many more.
ReplyDeleteMinimum lease term is 6 months according to the POS.
Williams Marketing is offering that rental direct? Are they testing the waters for large scale rentals?
ReplyDeleteBoy did you guys get hosed on this building. It should be fun paying 2007 prices (which were about 50% too high) to live next to rental units (which those unsold will be in 6 months). Brutal...
ReplyDeleteI really wanted to love my unit, but the reality is I was not impressed at all last week. I planned on closing and living in it, but now I plan to walk from the deposit.
ReplyDeleteIt's too bad because I love the building and the concept, but they have not lived up to the standard of excellence they originally set. And what's worse is they don't seem to really care.
What a bummer...
I did not attend the Buyers event, but from the responses generated on here it sounds quite underwhelming. I am General Contractor and if floors are uneven in our homes, we "float" them out and make them even, ESPECIALLY if the buyer is the one commenting on the problem. I would expect more from a developer charging $750/SF or more.
ReplyDeleteAs for the 50/50 ownership, I think this has RENTAL written all over it, so that Hedreen can rent them and get some cash flow back vs. just waiting until 2020 for sales to pick back up.
The primary concern is if Hedreen retains a large percentage of condo's at Olive 8, or if a block is sold by auction to a non-resident investor (which is happening in Miami), can they then dominate the HOA and change the bylaws to allow rentals etc?
ReplyDeleteI've seen bylaws that allow any owner(s) with 20% or more ownership to force an immediate vote, regardless if the HOA board disagrees. I think they would still need 50% ownership to pass an amendment though, right?
Well, the http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/1100884053.html rental listing has been pulled. Not sure what that means.
ReplyDeletebut this one has popped up:
ReplyDeletehttp://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/1110775797.html
$4850? wow, keep dreaming...
looks like this building is going to be VERY rental heavy
According to that rental posting, Olive 8 is already an apartment building.
ReplyDeleteProperty type: Flat
They also offer 'piece of mind'. Is that a piece of their mind or a piece of mind? Will it bring me peace?
$4850 for rent... wow. But, realistically, that probably doesnt cover the mortgage, taxes (probably $800+/month), HOA ($800+/month) and insurance on this puppy. So, likely a monthly loss for the investor, even if they could get someone to pay $4850.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to offer the amenities that O8ers have to pay extra for - access to the fitness center, so I'd assume the 4850 covers that, too.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone done a walk-through yet? Does anyone know of a good appraiser? I'm thinking about bringing one to my walk-through.
ReplyDeleteAnother rental unit listing just came up:
ReplyDeletehttp://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/1112930342.html
Doing a search of the phone number leads to a Williams Marketing number: 206-251-1869
See the following articles that reference the number in a Williams Marketing context:
http://blog.marketplace.nwsource.com/realestate-featured-new-developments/2008/03/031908_moslerlofts.html
http://www.liveatstadiumlofts.com/about-us/for-agents.aspx
Apparently it's the same unit offered up for rent earlier as the phone number is affiliated with a Williams Marketing sales agent, however this time the ad doesn't have a Williams Marketing logo on it.
Sad to see Williams Marketing own people getting involved in renting Olive8 units out.
From what I remember the asking price before was higher than the current asking rental price. I wonder - why such a big drop?
That is kind of strange. She dropped it almost $150 per month in less than a week.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at the "reply to" contact, its Ericka Clibborn of Williams Marketing. She's the onsite agent for Leona, another WM project that just dropped prices on a bunch of their units. She probably had to remove the Williams Marketing logo.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you guys think about Leslie Williams? I do not like her and get a bad vibe from her.
She reminds me of Suze Orman, who makes me want to vomit too.
ReplyDeleteI hate Suze Orman with a passion, but comparing her to LW is pretty severe, I don't think I dislike anyone that much.
ReplyDeleteI received this email today...
ReplyDeleteDO YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO GET BACK
YOUR CONDO EARNEST MONEY DEPOSIT?
Find out before you walk away from
TENS OF THOUSANDS
of Dollars!
One of the results of the current economic meltdown is a growing battle between the developers of condominiums and their buyers over substantial earnest money deposits (“EMDs”) that have been sitting for up to two years or more in escrow. These disputes arise because the deposits were put down BEFORE the mortgage market became dysfunctional and before the value of the buyers’ units plummeted below their 20-40% stated purchase prices. Additionally, the requirements regarding the percentage of units that must be pre-sold in order to get buyers federally insured financing have changed and tightened.
As might be expected, developers are very reluctant to agree to let buyers have their EMDs back, which may be many tens of thousands of dollars (typically 5% of the purchase price). They and their attorneys will tell buyers, often incorrectly, that they have no legal right to the return of their own money, along with the interest that has been earned on the EMD while sitting in escrow.
The truth is that you may well have a very strong legal basis, or several bases, to demand that your EMD be returned to you, along with the accrued interest, and even your attorneys’ fees. In order to know if you have such rights, you need to consult with an attorney experienced in reviewing condo purchase agreements, public offering statements, and related documents, and in negotiating with developers and their attorneys about EMDs.
We have successfully represented many buyers in several condo projects throughout Puget Sound in getting back their EMDs, either on a contingent fee (we only get paid if we get money for you) or on a straight hourly rate basis, or on a blended basis of the two methods.
^^
ReplyDeleteplease provide the contact for that attorney
Class action lawsuits are a red herring...careful if you decide to go that route...they always benefit the lawyers more than the individuals represented. Look - it's tough - but you signed an agreement and knew the risks. If you did this with a normal homeowner you wouldn't get the money back either - that's real estate 101! We've actually started to look at Olive 8 as a buying option...and yes if you check with any agent there have been recent closings there (I think I saw 3 in the last week according to our agent)...so people are buying...and this weekend we bumped into folks moving in...so all the doom and gloom on this blog is understandable but not helpful unless you are just here to vent. Getting loans for condos are super tough right now...but if you want to live downtown, there aren't many options...thus making any condo purchase a good long term investment. Just wanted to bring some objectivity to the discussion. :)
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to be objective. Don't compare what has been the norm in real estate years ago or what you call "101". What happened to our economy is unprecendented and whether you like it or not you have to put this into consideration. What was disccused 2 -3 years ago with these buyers as far as "standard" loans practices are concerned are no longer applicable in today's economy. There needs to be consideration placed here for the buyers. If people are using this site to vent then respect them because it is their way of coping. Your quote "objectivity" is not adding comfort to people you are putting salt to a gaping wound and I think that is cruel and rude.
ReplyDeleteI know I took a risk, however, I "bought in " on the assumption that I was going to put 5% down. I was pre-qualified to put 5% down ( with their prefered onsite lender).
ReplyDeletethat was my earnest money, that was what I was willing to risk and they agreed. NOW I am required to put 15% DOWN. I dont have it, and because of that, the developer gets to keep my 5% earnest money. It might be legal for them to do so, but it is tantamount to extortion imo.
After speaking with this law group about class action lawsuits, they would be recouping their attorney fees from the developer and the developer's insurance company, not from buyer deposits.
ReplyDeletei was actually pre-approved for an amount that was less than the reserved price
ReplyDeleteI agree a class action is not a great idea. They are risky and take forever, and it's the lawyers who make out.
ReplyDeleteAs for 'if you want to live downtown, there aren't many options'...check the MLS. There are a ton of condo's on the market right now, and plenty of better deals than Olive 8's 2007 era pricing.
FWIW, Williams Marketing lost two of their major accounts this week, so they are probably hurting as well. I wonder how long the insiders who bought units to flip will be able to hold on.
how is a class action risky? I admit I dont know much about this stuff, but I thought that with class action you cannot loose any money.
ReplyDeleteThey are risky because judges may be reluctant to certify the class, and because they tend to take longer than a regular lawsuit. Look at the Vista lawsuit that has been in the news for two years and just got thrown out.
ReplyDeleteOne of the Olive 8 condo owners must step up to be the lead plaintiff. In the US they are generally not forced to pay the defendants legal costs if they lose the case, but it would still make me nervous.
In the end it's the lawyers who stand to make the most from a class action because they are more complex than a regular lawsuit, and the class members often receive little of value in the settlement - but there will always be a chunk of cash for the lawyers. If the settlement is binding on all members then you might end up with a lousy coupon good for your next condo purchase from Hedreen. :)
I believe that an Olive8 buyer has already stepped forward to be the lead plaintiff.
ReplyDeleteanyone get the email "Live Atop the Hyatt at Olive 8"?
ReplyDeleteseems like the prices are already dropping. two bedrooms as low as the 800's.
it's going to get ugly, really ugly. you'll be able to pick up a two bedroom for under 700k within a year in olive8
i work in the industry, and will be walking away from my earnest money deposit... i spoke with 2 appraisers about values on Olive8- they were quite clear that my unit would appraise for about 25% less than the contract price. i'd like to know how the hell there were closings without some sort of fraud going on? i mean, seriously... did people actually bring $$$ to the table to make up the difference? i'm not judging here, but i do want to know, since it seems *highly* suspect.
ReplyDeletespeaking of highly suspect, during one of the buyers events, I asked if I could bring my own appraiser, and they said NOOOO!!! and quickly moved on to another topic.
ReplyDeletethe developer/williams could have been much more procative about this mess, but they have been ignoring it for months, and now it is blowing up in there face.
Ouch. That doesnt shock me about the -25% that the appraisers are suggesting. In simply looking at the other condos on the market, it is so quickly and very obvious that O8 is way overpriced. I, like probably many of you, wonder what I was thinking when I put down money. Surely I was expecting a higher quality product than what they delivered. Partly my own fault for being too trustworthy of Hedreen/Williams and the showroom, and partly Hedreen's underdelivery on quality and specifications in so many ways. So sad - even in a poor economy I think this building could have been a sucess if it had been built to the promised level of quality and details.
ReplyDeletewell i just closed my Olive 8 unit and it appraised out fine. the appraiser was picked by my lender and the value came out $25k higher than my purchase price !!
ReplyDeletei move in tomorrow and the place looks fantastic !!
The punch list was complete, the concierge is helpful and nice, and the closing was smooth as can be.
Would you mind sharing with us which floor plan you purchased? Just wondering...
ReplyDeletesure, its a one bedroom one bath unit and I LOVE IT!!!!
ReplyDeleteDid you get pricing on the first day or pre-sales?
ReplyDeleteHow much did they require you put down? 10%?
Which lender did you use?
i bought during the pre-sales......about may 2008
ReplyDeleteolive 8 didnt require any specific down but the lender wanted 10% down.
Countrywide was the lender
Congratulations, Olive 8 closer! I'm happy for you - and jealous. I presume you got an early appointment through the Olive 8 pre-sale drawing. Williams "misplaced" 16 of the early applicants' paperwork, so they were not included in the drawing, possibly benefiting the insiders in getting the lower priced units.
ReplyDeletethanks.............but i wasnt in any lottery.
ReplyDeletei think the lottery was about a year before i got into town. but in any regard i didnt get the cheapest of the most expensive unit in the building thats for sure but i think it is a "typical" unit if there is such a thing.
You seem hestitant to share model unit number. You are a very lucky individual. Out of the hundereds of people dealing with these lending challenges and requriements you are the only one who managed to do it at 10% down with Countrywide. Would you mind sharing why your situation is unique?
ReplyDeletehere are my thoughts:
ReplyDelete-The building looks amazing and so does my reserved unit. Everything from head to toe is exceptional with this entire project
-My unit does not feel like 800 sqft+ at all, more like 650 or so....
-The quality re my unit is as expected, no let downs except the sqft and the carpet, it feels super cheap, unlike the model unit...
-The common areas look better than anticipated and the amenities are top of the line...
-I would not count on any discounts and concessions especially if you have anthing less that a 2 bed....that means most of you. Apparantly there is a demand for these units....they did sell a few last week...wouldn't be surpirsed if they actually raised the prices on few of these units on te hlower floors...
-I wouldn't count on walking away from your earnst money and being able to buy it back at 30% discount in 6 months...I really dont see price drops on the horizon for the smaller open and 1 bed units...especially on the lower floors...
-I wouldn't count on the developer handing back your money either if you walk....best bet is to hire your own lawyer if you really want to walk down that path....if you bought as investor unlike me, then I really don't have any sympathy for you...you took a risk and lost.....
if you want to live at O8 on a long term basis and have the capacity to close, I would do it.....if you are thinking short term you should walk and go buy something elsewhere, lots of really good deals out if you are a qualified buyer....
if you can't close, then maybe hire a lawyer and get some of your money back...
this is an unbiased opinion of the building and situation....
I'm another buyer who is closing soon with 10% down, but using two lenders to do it. I don't think this is unique. I reserved my home back in early 2006, during the initial presale.
ReplyDeleteVery well said, thanks for your thoughts. I agree, the one bedroom on the lower floors will probably sell better than the 2-bedroom floor plans. Especially if they are going to be required to cough out 20%. I don't think a lot of people would spend a lot of money for condos.
ReplyDeleteI also got approved with 10% down and I am also using 2 lenders to do it. I agree that my situation is not unique. I also reserved my home back in 2006 during the initial presale and I expect to be in the black with my investment.
ReplyDeleteI had a walk-thru this week and my closing coordinator said that about a dozen people had closed. My walk-thru was great- I used a lot of blue tape but my unit is wonderful. I have a 1B/1BA on a lower floor.
Just saw a newly listed Olive8 resale on Redfin today.
ReplyDelete#2209
1 bedroom 1 bath
682 square feet
This unit clears the Qwest building so you get a great view down Olive.
Only: $375,000
Only $550/square foot
For those of you considering closing and then selling your unit within the next 1-2 years, this is not a good sign.
For those of you interested in buying and have not yet reserved, this is a great deal!
Wow, must have been another William's insider who got killer pricing up front. This is one of the best 1 bd floorplans too. What a great deal at 550/SF!
ReplyDeleteI overheard LW say at the last buyer's event that there were only 6 investors in the entire building...yeah right.
The definition of an "investment" buyer as I understand it, is one who has stated on their purchase and sales agreement that they were buying as an investment and would be seeking non-owner financing. Many other "flippers" or "investors" were buying as their primary residence or a "second" home. Time will tell how many actual speculators there were in the mix.
ReplyDeletethat floor plan is super weak in my opinion, its basically a studio....I bet it feels really small as well. My 814 sgft unit feels really cramped up. I can only imagine what 682 feels like plus there is no island or eating counter space....should be more of that floor plan coming to the market soon....
ReplyDeleteHey guys. If I can't sell my condo on capitol hill in two weeks, I won't be closing at 08.
ReplyDeletehave a look:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/reb/1135339194.html
welcome to the club. I can't afford 20% down. I'll be walking too.
ReplyDeleteI understand the developer is willing to help any buyer with their deposit requirements in the form of a second 5yr loan. Not a bad option if you really want to live there, and believe the market will be in a better place in 5 years!
ReplyDelete5 year loan?
ReplyDeletesay i reserved at 500k, already have my 5% in, so i need another 15% to get the conventional loan. the developer loans me that 15% (75k) which has to be paid back in five years
by my math, that's a payment on a second loan at $1250/month even on an interest rate of zero
am i just totally off?
I believe they are offering interest only loans, so in 5 years you would have to either refinance that portion (hopefully that will be much easier in 5yrs!) or pay it off. Depending on the rates they are offering, your monthly payment would be somewhere between $312 (5%) and $437 (7%) per month.
ReplyDeleteI just toured and was underwhelmed with the finish level and overall layout. I was expecting something more upscale for the price. Some of the plans don't make sense e.g. the tiny little den is too small for anything. The pool and fitness center looks nice though.
ReplyDeleteThe agent said owners have a guaranteed rate of $155 night for guests, but I checked online and you can get a room at Hyatt at Olive 8 for $174 a night, so that's hardly much value.
The hotel arrangement concerns me. The hotel, pool and restaurant was absolutely empty at what is normally peak hour. How long will they stay in business? What is the net effect on condo owners if the Hyatt was to close their doors?
Someone is reselling #2708 at their cost, including agent fees, for $578 a square foot...see http://www.shriber.com/olive8/
ReplyDeleteWith #2209 at $550 a square foot, it didn't take long for the flippers to establish the bottom of the market quickly. If these properties are due to close in May, there will be a lot of downward pressure on pricing in the next 60 days once mortgage payments come due.
Good question you pose. I bet Urbane is belly up within 6 months. I havent seen anyone in there and there menu is not built for the economic situation taking place right now. Sounds like they run in the same circles as Leslie Williams and her crack team.
ReplyDeleteUrbane is operated by Hyatt, and they aren't going anywhere. I walked past there this morning and the place was packed for breakfast.
ReplyDeleteWhat about lunch and dinner? A restaurant cannot depend on revenue from breakfast alone.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note, we had breakfast there last Sunday. We ordered an entree each, with OJ and coffee. Cost was around $50 for two - not including tax and tip. I consider that to be a fairly expensive breakfast - especially compared to the competition such as Saltys etc. in that price range.
Urbane looks good but I have my doubts as well, place always looks empty
ReplyDeleteNo doubts about hyatt going under, non what so ever. Hotel rooms are cheap right now on a global plateform, not just O8
I understand developer is willing to work with prospective buyers to a large extent to make closings happen??? What ever that means??
I feel prices/terms are very negotiable right now.
My bet is that $550 a square foot is nowhere near the "bottom".
ReplyDeleteHas anyone received an email from Leslie Williams directly with tremendous pressure to close??? I have and was quite alarm by it, particularly when I've never dealt with her directly before. Not sure why she would contact me directly since she's the broker - that's like the listing agent contacting the buyer and bypassing the buyer's agent. At minimum, she go through my agent instead of contacting me. At any rate, I don't think that kind of communication is appropriate.
ReplyDeleteI received the same email and completely agree with you about how inappropriate it was. Blew me away how unprofessional it was. I felt like I was trying to be intimidated.
ReplyDeleteFrom the developers statement on the website (calling us "differentiators") to this email from Leslie Williams to the quote in the paper ("if the downturn continues, we may have to revisit [prices]”), I just can't believe how Williams Marketing and the developer is handling this situation. There's such a high level of arrogance coming from those running the show.
I ran into David Thyer earlier this week and had an opportunity to ask him about his comments to Eric Pryne. He stated that Pryne had somewhat mis-characterized his comments. When asked about what Hedreen would do if the housing market continued to slide over the next SEVERAL years, he had responded that they would obviously have to re-think their pricing on units that remained available in 2010, but that he was more confident that the market would have seen significant improvement rather than further deterioration by then.
ReplyDeleteTypical headline distortion/creation stuff by Pryne.....
The Seattle market is lagging national trends so it has yet to see a bottom in housing (CS index still at 154 while CA index is around 120 now). So to think that there will be a "significant improvement" in a years time is ridiculous and uninformed. Even if Seattle bottoms out by year end, 2010 and 2011 will be tough years for sellers.
ReplyDeletewell I believe David Thyer et al. mis-characterized plenty of things on their own without the help Pryne.
ReplyDeleteHere is my advice to anyone planning on closing soon:
ReplyDeleteGet a lawyer and renegotiate the deal/price and leave Williams as far out of it as you possibly can.
Hello, I am a buyer and have closed and moved in. I have been quiet on this blog and have not posted. I just wanted to let you know that after you close you will not get any return phone calls or emails or anything concerning your warranty items or maintenance issues. I waited 10 days to get my shower drain fixed. Something that I did not notice during the walk-thru. The seller or CWD or Flask, or whoever is in charge simply does not care about the current home owners, 10 days is too long to wait with standing water. All I can say is that when you go on your walk thru note everything and make sure that it is fixed before you close otherwise you may be waiting months before anything is taken care of. I am curious if any of the other homeowners have run into stuff also. BTW my heater/AC was out for 3 days before I had someone come by to fix it.
ReplyDeleteWow....thanks for the post. Its great to get some insight from those that have already moved in. A lot of us are still sitting on the fence.
ReplyDeleteI imagine Leslie Williams is getting involved now because every time a buyer walks away, she also loses 3% of the transaction ($20-40K). She sure has incentive to rope those buyers in! I actually think its pretty funny that she's getting desperate.
Can anyone share what Williams said in letters to "on the fence" buyers?
ReplyDeleteKing County has updated their database with Olive 8. No owners are listed yet.
ReplyDeletehttp://www5.kingcounty.gov/kcgisreports/property_report.aspx?PIN=6364001040
Oddly, the prices that Hedreen valued each unit at is roughly half the price they are trying to sell them for. Other condo's I've looked at haven't done that - the developer holds the unit at a price close to the sales figure.
For example, #2708 that is reselling on Redfin for $620k is listed at King County with an appraised value of $301k for tax year 2009.
The first year's tax assessment is hardly a figure to go by when attempting to determine it's true market value because the county is only valuing the land and not the actual condo unit. Thus, it's typically low the first year and gets adjusted by the following year.
ReplyDeleteNormally, I would share with you what she wrote; however, since the material is specific and sensitive, I'm afraid that it may give it away. Just know that her notes are not genuine and sinncere, rather contentious, in your face and imtidating...
ReplyDeleteI'm a pre-sale buyer at Olive 8 and it looks like I'm going to walk away from the purchase as well. I've spent some considerable time thinking about the opportunity and have posted my analysis at http://www.inspiredstartup.com/my-23750-mistake-at-olive-8/
ReplyDeleteFor those that have decided not to close, have you considered that the developer has a right to sue for damages if the buyer walks away? They can also bring suit to enforce the P&S agreement. The P&S agreement is very clear about this. Did you not consider this a strong possibility and therefore decided to walk?
ReplyDeletethe earnest money is the developer's liquidated damages dummbaz
ReplyDeleteHe can also choose to forfeit the liquidated damages and sue for actual damages, which if the unit is sold for less than the contract, would be the amount of the difference. Thanks for your maturity, "dummbaz".
ReplyDeleteAnyone see that Williams Marketing listed a bunch of units only to change the status to "pending".
ReplyDeleteAre they really getting that desperate that they've started to play MLS games?
the poster making claims about being sued for damages obviously not a buyer and does not have a copy of the contract.
ReplyDeletethe "election of remedies section" is clear that the "remedy" for walking is forfiture of earnest money... and thats it! This sole remedy was stipulated and chosen by the developer. In some contract cases you can be sued for damages, but not in this contract, so whoever said that you are wrong... sorry.
"pending"- HAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteFor those readers that are not buyers at Olive 8 and are interested in looking at the exact contract language to follow along with the discussion, see:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.williamsmarketing.com/about-us/documents/O8121308.pdf(for as long as Williams Marketing keeps the contract up on the web)
"Anyone see that Williams Marketing listed a bunch of units only to change the status to "pending".
ReplyDeleteAre they really getting that desperate that they've started to play MLS games?"
This isn't done to game the MLS, but rather to more accurately account for unit sales in the MLS database. In the past, new construction units were rarely represented in the MLS database, which skewed the stats. I believe, though I'm not certain, the NWMLS is now requiring that sales at new construction now be added.
I was just reading www.urbnlivn.com and someone made a post on there announcing that Escala, of all places, will be turning to luxury apartments. Can anyone confirm this? Those will be some fancy apartments, rents must be crazy!
ReplyDeleteCome on Hedreen, follow suit!
I think thats just a rumor, I cant imagine how that would pencil out for the developer. In any event if it is true, hedreen will be more likely to just stay the course because half of the competition would have just been eliminated.
ReplyDeletewould not pencil at all....it's a last resort option....but what is the alternative option, foreclose???
ReplyDeleteHedreen's competition is escala only on a much smaller scale. His biggest threat is unemployment rates, sinking real estate values, a poor economy, zero consumer confidence, etc....just like the rest of us....
i bet hedreen tries toclose as many units as they can then go apartment, maybe not this year, but my guess is within a year
ReplyDeleteno way they can sustain a building that's 40% sold for an extended period of time
how can you go apartment after closing even one unit... do you buy the tenants or, is the building part condo part apartment?
ReplyDeleteit would be a legal mess and I don't see that as a viable option at all....their construction lender is just going to have to work with them on this matter with extensions and modifications....Hedreen is a wealthy player, he will make it but with a few bruises and bumps like everyone else out there....
ReplyDeleteHedreen may be wealthy, but you can be sure Olive 8 LLC is a separate entity underwritten by bank financing, and subject to the constraints thereto. There is no way a developer would personally underwrite a project like Olive 8 which costs hundreds of millions of dollars. Not even Paul Allen does that.
ReplyDeleteCondo to apartment conversions happen all the time. Just look at Miami. Usually a private investor steps in, buys up all the unsold units at a discount (or at foreclosure). Then they hold enough votes to change all HOA terms to allow 100% rentals.
Existing owners usually get the shaft, although the investor may offer to buy them out.
Going apartments will still be tough for Olive 8. The massive Olivian apartments across the road just opened and has amazing amenities. Aspira apartments are one block away and will be open later this year. Ironically Aspira was originally a condo project but the developer saw the writing on the wall.
Keep in mind that Hedreen is in business to own and operate hotels, that is what they do and they are very good at at. The first 15 floors are a hotel. I would think a conversion to some sort of hotel operation would be more likely for some of the floors.
ReplyDeleteThe olivian next door to olive 8 is open now and you can tour it. I went on friday ( opening day) Im no contravtor or any kind of expert on the matter, but the finish level and quality is AMAZING. no I dont work for olivian, I have a reservation at olive8. I am not sure if olive8 delivered the kind of quality and attention to detail I saw at the olivian. everything just exuded quality, 10 and 1/2 ft ceilings, The unit doors are 8ft solid oak with a marble soround. and the common areas are nicer than the four seasons. I dont know how well they will rent in this environment( theyll probably be forced to come down in $ in the months ahead) but it is nicer than almost any condo offering Ive seen.
ReplyDeleteany updates from anyone on crane's client list??? There are lost of closing coming up this week?????
ReplyDeleteI looked at the Olivian as well and completely agree with your thoughts. It's what Olive8 should have been. Save the pool and workout area (amenities not included in the HOD's at Olive8 anyway) the Olivian has completely schooled Olive8 in finishes and amenities.
ReplyDeleteMore reason not to go through with my purchase next month at O8.
Are those photo's on the Olivian website real? If they are, then there will be few rentals at Olive 8.
ReplyDeleteyou guys are trippin....olive 8 is way nicer than the olivian..the exterior design of the olivian is superior though....asetically Olive8's design is very simple and almost can be considered to be lackluster....
ReplyDeletefinsh quality, amenities, etc , etc...olive 8 carries heavier weight....however I will give the olivian the crown for a rental tower in Seatte though....as for now...
"Hedreen may be wealthy, but you can be sure Olive 8 LLC is a separate entity underwritten by bank financing"
ReplyDeletedoesn't matter...construction money is recourse based financing and Hedreen still signs as the guarantor. If the deal goes upside down then Hedreen is not personally proteced by olive 8 LLC, he is still on the hook $ perosonally for repayment of the construction loan. The LLC protcets him from civil liabilities not financial obligations when you gurantee a recourse loan....
I am unable to find closed sales on the King County metro web site. When you put in the 2 parcel numbers shown, you can't locate the excise tax affidavits. Last time I looked, I counted 12-13 closed. Anyone have any clue how to find out how many have actually closed to date?
ReplyDeleteIt normally takes a couple months for closed sales to show up on the KC website.
ReplyDeleteGo to King County public records search and search for Ollive 8 but narrow the search to only pull up warranty deeds. These deeds show up as quickly as the same day.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kingcounty.gov/business/Recorders/RecordsSearch.aspx
I looked up the public records and it looks like 17 units have closed through 5/6/09. Here are the numbers, according to floor plan:
ReplyDeleteUnit-Price
1900-$935,000
2101-$410,000
2002-$1,055,000
2302-$995,000
1803-$400,000
2103-$445,000
2203-$610,000
1804-$450,000
2104-$515,000
2204-$430,000
2404-$400,000
2005-$775,000
2107-$445,000
2307-$555,000
1908-$485,000
2009-$320,000 (bought by Leslie Williams)
Some very interesting trends here. It looks like the buyer of 2002 and 2104 must have purchased after the initial offering as they paid much more for their unit as the the same units above. Didn't they find this blog? Did they have money to waste? Why not negotiate??
Or what about 2203, which paid $210,000 more than the same floorplan four floors below? Is 4 floors worth $210,000 to you?
And similarly, 2307 paid $100,000 more than the same floor plan on 2107.
Now I understand that there are differences in upgrades, but these are significant price differences!
And the biggest winner?? Leslie Williams was the only buyer that was able to purchase in the 300K price range. The benefits of being the listing broker!
Lessons to learn from this for all of your buyers that have NOT yet closed....do your due dilligence! Compare prices of previously closed units. Don't over pay! Negotiate with the builder! Use this public knowledge to help you!
Very interesting numbers!
ReplyDeleteHow about 2104, closing at a price that is 115k higher than a unit on a higher floor. Ouch!
So if we assume that floors 18-22 should have closed by 5/6/09, that should have been 49 units closed by that same date (according to the website). Being there are 17 closings, it looks like the conversation rate is about 35%.
Figure there are few stragglers in there (let's say five) and the number is more like 45%. WOW!
Say this rate (45%) continues all the way up the building, after all is done the building will be appx 36% occupied (based on the assumption that 80% of the units are already reserved).
Scary...
Updated closing numbers as of 5/14/09 (* indicates most recent closings):
ReplyDeleteUnit-Price
1900-$935,000
2101-$410,000
2401-$450,000*
2002-$1,055,000
2302-$995,000
1803-$400,000
2103-$445,000
2203-$610,000
1804-$450,000
2104-$515,000
2204-$430,000
2404-$400,000
2005-$775,000
2107-$445,000
2307-$555,000
1908-$485,000
2008-$525,000*
2009-$320,000 (bought by Leslie Williams)
The buyer of 2008 paid $40,000 more than one floor below!
1803-$400k
ReplyDelete2103-$445k
2203-$610k
To me this looks like 1803 and 2103 got great deals. Probably purchased much earlier but 2203 still needed to appraise so the value must be there. I think those who purchased late in the game should try and renegotiate their purchase price.
Yeah, I was wondering how 2203 was able to appraise for $610,000. Anyone know how that works?
ReplyDeleteyea, that appraisal is for use of the finacing company only, that is it, that is all. It even states that....
ReplyDeleteThe appriasal is not true indictaion of market value, in fact its alomst worthless...
appraisals only matter if you're getting a loan
ReplyDeleteothertise, if the place appraises at 450k, but they pay 610k, they have to cover that gap with a larger down payment
I agree with the appraisal comments. I dont think too may people would close if the appraisal is not there. Appraisals are pretty accurate espically now days as banks will not loan if values are not there.
ReplyDeleteMany people on this blog seem to think Olive 8 is not a good building and a complete rip off. My opinion is that its an amazing building. I do think the values are there right now. I think the values will be there in the long term. I am choosing not to close as it is a stretch for me personally and am not sure what values will do when there are 150+ units on the market and if I need to sell within the next year or two it will be too risky.
I think those of us who bought early and do not close will be kicking ourselves in 5 years.
anyone been offered price discounts? our broker said Oliv8 would potentially give us a lower price...
ReplyDeleteUpdated closing numbers as of 5/19/09 (* indicates most recent closings):
ReplyDeleteUnit-Price
1800-$895,000*
1900-$935,000
2101-$410,000
2401-$450,000
2002-$1,055,000
2302-$995,000
1803-$400,000
2103-$445,000
2203-$610,000
1804-$450,000
2104-$515,000
2204-$430,000
2404-$400,000
2005-$775,000
2107-$445,000
2307-$555,000
1908-$485,000
2008-$525,000
2009-$320,000 (bought by Leslie Williams)
2510-$450,000*
A just curious question. As the number of closures increases, does this have any impact on the legal approach that some others are choosing?
ReplyDeletethank you!
ReplyDeletei find those closing numbers very interesting
how are you gettmay i ask, how are you getting them?
Public record. Accessible via the King County Recorder's office.
ReplyDeleteThe Olive 8 website shows 6 units sold on level 18, and 10 on level 19. The lower level units started closing in March, when this blog was started, and it appears they are up to level 27 now since one has closed there.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't take two months to close a real estate purchase, so all of the pre-sold level 18 and 19 units should be closed by now unless there is some delay in financing/valuation/inspection.
According to this list, as of this week only 3 have closed on level 18 and another 2 on level 19. So what is happening with the other 3 + 8 units?
Are they 11 people who are walking away from their earnest money or whose financing fell through? I don't get it.
I heard that they sold 3 a couple of weeks ago, but they were all resales (ie, the buyer backed out). Those types of transactions won't be closing right away.
ReplyDeleteBuyers *are* asking the WM to resell their units. My guess is that they're not going to update the website just yet for the buyers that aren't closing.
Enso is opening this week. Will their cheaper prices put any pressure on Olive 8? Anyone know what % they have pre-sold?
ReplyDeleteEnso is about 60%, but I doubt they'll yield over 70% of their presales.
ReplyDeletewhat's tha parcel number?
ReplyDeleteEnso is discounting their condo's, and refunding the difference to early buyers.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.stroupecondoblog.com/2009/05/enso-buyers-receiving-notice-of-price-reductions/
Updated closing numbers as of 5/27/09 (* indicates most recent closings):
ReplyDeleteUnit-Price
1800-$895,000
1900-$935,000
2101-$410,000
2401-$450,000
2002-$1,055,000
2302-$995,000
1803-$400,000
2103-$445,000
2203-$610,000
1804-$450,000
2104-$515,000
2204-$430,000
2404-$400,000
2606-$495,000*
2005-$775,000
2107-$445,000
2307-$555,000
1908-$485,000
2008-$525,000
2009-$320,000 (bought by Leslie Williams)
2510-$450,000
A review of the KC public records indicates that 15 unites closed in the month of April, while only 7 have closed in May. Let us not forget that the building is closing from the bottom up, with the more affordable units being on the lower floors. So as the closings continue, I believe we'll see less and less buyers close when they see that the 7-10 units directly below them are now available at a lesser price.
Things are not looking good for Hedreen. Why doesn't he follow suit with Vulcan and Enso?? Why not proactively offer price reductions to those that have reserved units? The problem I have is that these are things that MANY Olive 8 buyers voiced at the beginning of this year. But did Williams Mkting or Hedreen listen? No! Instead, they tried to act like nothing was happening. Well, it is now backfiring and they have a 50% drop in closings in May vs. April.
To all of you buyers that remain on the fence....DEMAND a price reduction and negotiate!
I'm seriously thinking about walking from my money and buying elsewhere.....
ReplyDeletelittle offended about how Vulcan handled this situation correctly while O8 has done essentially nothing!
I see things getter alot worse and cheaper at O8 as things progress.....
Wow.
ReplyDeleteI've been considering whether I want to close or not and seeing these numbers scares me to death.
What's going to happen with the unsold inventory? Look at what's happening to Lumen, they are auctioning the remaining 21 units in just a few weeks.
I'm guessing we'll see something from Hedreen, however it'll be too little too late. We should have gotten a letter from him four months ago.
Short of a 35% price drop, based on how many units are actually closing, I'm walking.
"Things are not looking good for Hedreen. Why doesn't he follow suit with Vulcan and Enso??"
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that the "new owners" took possession of 100% of the space on the hotel floors. Thus, from the perspective of the cost of the *whole* building, Hedreen's already pulled in a big chunk of the expected revenue they needed to get out of the building from the Hyatt folks. That probably puts Hedreen in a much better position now than an all-condo or condo+empty office space project would be.
Add in all the money Hedreen gets to keep from the walk-aways - not exactly chump change - and Hedreen may in fact be doing all right.
RE: Lumen going auction. Lumen's been open for, what, 2+ years now?
ReplyDeleteFor those of you who are not going to close, do not sign the termination agreement! You do have a right to your money back. See an attorney!
ReplyDeleteRegards to Hedreen.....
ReplyDeleteYes, he has 17 floors occupied by the Hyatt. But I believe Hedreen also is part owner of the Hyatt at Olive8 hotel. And the hotel looks nice, but I'm not sure if they've hit their goals yet.
Also, the earnest deposits that buyers are losing are likely to be locked up in negotiations/litigation for months. At the same time, construction loans are coming due. From the position Hedreen was in 6 months ago compared to now, he's definitely in a tough situation. The point I was making earlier was that Hedreen should have been proactive in recognizing the current market. He could have addressed this issue 6 months ago and more buyers would have possibly continued with their purchase. Instead, he and Williams Mrkting held to their prices. Now they are in seeing a dominoe effect. Because the lower floor units are not closing, the higher floor units will also not close. They should have offered a price reduction to buyers individually like Enso is doing.
Significant blunder in my opinion. It seems like they were trying to pull a fast on the buyers. The closed transcation figures make me very nervous about closing.
ReplyDeleteAt first glance it appears the dollar goes alot further elsewehere, almost everywhere.
I'm sure the hotel probably isn't hitting its goals - not a lot of lit windows at night. But still, it creates a much different situation for Hedreen than Vulcan.
ReplyDeletePerhaps enough so that he doesn't have to recognize the current market. If the books work out right, then he may not have to care much about the walkaways.
I'm walking away. There are some great deals out there & considerably cheaper than Olive 8. While the finishes are a little bit better, the value isn't there. I just looked at a 1400+ sq foot condo at 2200 for $550K.
ReplyDelete3 more closed yesterday:
ReplyDelete1800-$895,000
1900-$935,000
2800-$1,260,000*
2101-$410,000
2401-$450,000
2002-$1,055,000
2302-$995,000
1803-$400,000
2103-$445,000
2203-$610,000
1804-$450,000
2104-$515,000
2204-$430,000
2404-$400,000
2506-$503,661*
2606-$495,000
2005-$775,000
2107-$445,000
2307-$555,000
1908-$485,000
2008-$525,000
2009-$320,000 (bought by Leslie Williams)
2109-$330,000* (bought by Erica Clibborn, a Williams Marketing agent)
2510-$450,000
Enso is not opening until August now. Price drops are in the 25% range. O8 buyers should be furious if Henreen doesn't play ball now.
ReplyDeleteI am an Olive 8 buyer. Please stop comparing. These are entirely two different products. Its like Nordstrom and K Mart.
ReplyDelete